News   Jul 09, 2024
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News   Jul 09, 2024
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News   Jul 09, 2024
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Time for a tunnel to airport island?

Taxes are generally not used to subsidize already successful businesses at already successful locations serving already successful people. A successful business at a successful airport with successful passengers don't really need a subsidy. If one of the few businesses growing in a recession needs a subsidy then doesn't every business deserve money too? Tax payers don't even subsidize local streets and sewers in residential neighbourhoods in new middle class neighbourhoods. Developers are forced to pay for new roads, sewers, and pay development fees to pay for new schools. The bridge over the rail corridor at Cityplace will be fully paid by the developer and the tunnel at Simcoe was fully paid for by a developer. Why would it make sense for tax payers to pay for a bridge or tunnel required for private successful business and airport developer Porter?
 
Well, then we might as well give up on high speed rail. Wouldn't want those nasty business people getting a leg up. Note to self, anything that has business applications = evil.

Who says anything business is evil. I just don't think we need to give profitable businesses tax payer dollars. If you want to go hand the owner and executives of Porter a handout do it yourself.

You do realize that is incredibly stupid, right? People flying for recreational (as in, luxury) purposes are normal while people whose job requires frequent travel are "privileged"? That makes a lot of sense...

You think that people flying regularly on business are the low paid workers and the ones flying once every couple of years to Cuba or Vegas are the highly paid? I have never heard of a low paid worker needing to be flown places for business. Usually they are low paid because their abilities are more easily found and therefore why would they need to be flown somewhere?
 
Taxes are generally not used to subsidize already successful businesses at already successful locations serving already successful people. A successful business at a successful airport with successful passengers don't really need a subsidy. If one of the few businesses growing in a recession needs a subsidy then doesn't every business deserve money too? Tax payers don't even subsidize local streets and sewers in residential neighbourhoods in new middle class neighbourhoods. Developers are forced to pay for new roads, sewers, and pay development fees to pay for new schools. The bridge over the rail corridor at Cityplace will be fully paid by the developer and the tunnel at Simcoe was fully paid for by a developer. Why would it make sense for tax payers to pay for a bridge or tunnel required for private successful business and airport developer Porter?

That's a good point. Pearson is operated on a user-pay system, and I see no reason why the Island airport should be different.
 
In addition, Pearson despite a huge 4 billion dollar capital program had to pay for the whole project itself AND pay the federal government millions of dollars. There is no subsidy for Pearson... quite the opposite. The federal government takes more money from Pearson than any other airport in Canada.
 
Taxes are generally not used to subsidize already successful businesses at already successful locations serving already successful people.
WHAT?! Have you ever even LOOKED at the last few federal budgets? Let alone the NDP's platform...

A successful business at a successful airport with successful passengers don't really need a subsidy. If one of the few businesses growing in a recession needs a subsidy then doesn't every business deserve money too?
No. They don't "deserve" a subsidy because Stephen Harper (or Dalton McGuinty) eats poor people's babies. They *may* get one because their proposal meets bi-partisan criteria with respect to things like job creation and economic stimulus. What is funnier is that opposition isn't coming from some paleo-conservative Reform-esque CPC splinter group opposed to *all* government intervention, but a party whose line is never more complex than "The Conservatives (or Liberals) aren't spending enough fast enough!" Jesus, two weeks ago the NDP's President argued in the Star that we should start subsidizing Air Canada for no reason.

Why would it make sense for tax payers to pay for a bridge or tunnel required for private successful business and airport developer Porter?

The same reason it makes sense for 36% of the economy to be composed of government spending, we think the benefits outweigh the costs. If you think the tunnel won't do that that is a credible argument, but why bother pretending as though transit infrastructure being partially subsidized by the public sector is somehow abnormal? We all know it is blatant crap and the people who are aghast at spending 30m for a tunnel to YTZ are totally okay with spending tens of billions for a high speed rail line that will do exactly the same thing and serve exactly the same market. Hypocrisy is an understatement.

Anyways, last I checked, the bridge would be owned and operated by the TPA. That is a public asset, not a private company.

Who says anything business is evil. I just don't think we need to give profitable businesses tax payer dollars. If you want to go hand the owner and executives of Porter a handout do it yourself.

Why are you behaving like an idiot? If you don't think we should build a tunnel, fine, start giving reasons why it is a bad idea. What is totally incomprehensible is this pseudo-libertarian crap where, out of the blue, using taxpayer moneys is evil. I can't wait to see you foaming at the mouth about CBC subsidies, or subsidies to profitable companies via mechanisms like Scientific Research and Experimental Development Tax Credits. Subsidies to profitable video game companies like Ubisoft. Subsidies to profitable farmers. Subsidies to political parties. Subsidies to private companies like Bombardier or GM. God knows the subsidies given to profitable wind and solar companies.

I really don't know why I have to explain this to you, but everyone knows you are nothing but a fair-weather libertarian of convenience. We all know you have no real opposition to government intervention and are probably a big fan of it. We all know you are just trying to have cake and eat it to by selectively choosing where to be Ayn Rand and where to be Naomi Klein. We all know the entire Anti-Porter crowd has run out of anything approaching a coherent thought and that is why it is resorting to the dumbest possible argument for a mostly left wing group: complaining about taxes.

You think that people flying regularly on business are the low paid workers and the ones flying once every couple of years to Cuba or Vegas are the highly paid? I have never heard of a low paid worker needing to be flown places for business. Usually they are low paid because their abilities are more easily found and therefore why would they need to be flown somewhere?

No. You, for some totally unknown reason, keep with the ridiculous argument that Porter is somehow "exclusive." Any idiot can go right now to Porter or AC's website and see with utter ease that anyone who can afford traveling to Cuba or Vegas or whatever other "common man" resort of your choosing can afford traveling to any location served by Porter. If they can afford one, they can afford another. That basically disproves the visibly dumb claim that Porter is some kind of club for jet-setting millionaires. It is actually an incredibly economical way to travel, hence the popularity amongst those on a budget.
 
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WHAT?! Have you ever even LOOKED at the last few federal budgets? Let alone the NDP's platform...

You would like to follow the NDP platform? If your opinion is that tax payer money is best spent on already successful private businesses that is fine. It isn't a position I would share. I think needing to pay for the start up costs of every business could lead to significantly higher taxes.


No. They don't "deserve" a subsidy because Stephen Harper (or Dalton McGuinty) eats poor people's babies.

Oh. Sound very rational.

They *may* get one because their proposal meets bi-partisan criteria with respect to things like job creation and economic stimulus.

I wasn't aware private developers qualified for stimulus. You are going to claim the TPA is public of course but the infrastructure is only being built for Porter. The bridge Cityplace is forced to pay for itself is of far less benefit to Concord Adex than the tunnel or bridge is to Porter.

Jesus, two weeks ago the NDP's President argued in the Star that we should start subsidizing Air Canada for no reason.

I wouldn't support it unless Air Canada is about to collapse in which case the government should step in, perhaps subsidize, to figure out how to wind down service in an organized fashion without loosing important links.

The same reason it makes sense for 36% of the economy to be composed of government spending, we think the benefits outweigh the costs. If you think the tunnel won't do that that is a credible argument, but why bother pretending as though transit infrastructure being partially subsidized by the public sector is somehow abnormal? We all know it is blatant crap and the people who are aghast at spending 30m for a tunnel to YTZ are totally okay with spending tens of billions for a high speed rail line that will do exactly the same thing and serve exactly the same market.

If the subsidy had the caviat of fares controlled by the government then that would be fine. Transit fares are controlled by politicians and the electorate and transit doesn't make money because it doesn't only serve the most profitable route. The routes of high-speed rail is determined through a political process and doesn't make money. Porter will decide its fares and routes on its own and makes money. That is different. People are against Blue 22 as well because it is private.


Why are you behaving like an idiot?

I haven't made any claims of people eating babies.

I can't wait to see you foaming at the mouth about CBC subsidies, or subsidies to profitable companies via mechanisms like Scientific Research and Experimental Development Tax Credits. Subsidies to profitable video game companies like Ubisoft. Subsidies to profitable farmers. Subsidies to political parties. Subsidies to private companies like Bombardier or GM. God knows the subsidies given to profitable wind and solar companies.

I have a problem with all subsidies to profitable business. Loans which must be repaid for R&D and tax break incentives to move businesses into the area are exceptions... because it doesn't actually cost anything since outside the jurisdiction they weren't paying tax to us either.

I really don't know why I have to explain this to you, but everyone knows you are nothing but a fair-weather libertarian of convenience.

Everyone knows you are a Porter fanboy. You think planes are cool where ever they are. Unable to answer why developers must pay for public infrastructure but Porter and the airport should not you result to rants and talk of eating babies.
 
Taxes are generally not used to subsidize already successful businesses at already successful locations serving already successful people.

But at the same time, taxes are used to subsidize already successful businesses at already successful locations serving already successful people. This not only happens in Canada, but the same things happen in many countries around the world.
 
Subsidizing successful companies is good for business. Keeps them happy. Keeps them in your city/province/state/country. Lest they leave for cheaper pastures. Maybe not relevant to Porter, but in general.
 
Subsidizing successful companies is good for business. Keeps them happy. Keeps them in your city/province/state/country. Lest they leave for cheaper pastures. Maybe not relevant to Porter, but in general.

I would prefer a zero percent corporate tax rate over handouts. Handouts apply only to well connected companies and are unevenly applied. A zero percent corporate tax rate benefits all companies equally.
 
That's a good point. Pearson is operated on a user-pay system, and I see no reason why the Island airport should be different.

The Island airport does not operate any differently. It has an AIF and really expensive landing fees (for what services are provided) just like Pearson. It's a ridiculous myth that YTZ somehow runs differently from Pearson. The only reason it wasn't making money was because it relied on a shifty client (AC). Now Porter has come along and capitalized on it's strategic location and has sunk in good money to improve the airport by building its own terminal. By comparison AC didn't even have to pay a cent for the improvement of T1 at Pearson of which they are the principal resident. Air Canada was on the Island for decades. How much did they do for the airport? The federal subsidy argument does not hold once you put in context. And now that the airport is profitable, there's a good chance that Porter could help the airport actually pay back past debts.
 
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I would prefer a zero percent corporate tax rate over handouts. Handouts apply only to well connected companies and are unevenly applied. A zero percent corporate tax rate benefits all companies equally.

However, that's not reality. Please tell us your opinion of Ubisoft, Filmport, and EDC loans to Bombardier. I'd love for you to explain why building a bridge to an airport owned by a public entity is viewed as an unfair subsidy to a private entity while building billion dollar subways to green fields in Vaughan which developers will clean up on is not a subsidy. At least YTZ charges airport improvement fees which will recover some of the cost. The government does not impose any sort of tax or fee to recoup the incredible increase in land value that the developer will reap due entirely to billions in public expenditure.

And again, if you are so concerned about tax dollars being wasted, than your stance on rail is absolutely contradictory. You are opposed to wasting 38 million once on bridge but are okay with VIA taking in tens of millions of subsidies annually and a potential HSR requiring hundreds of millions of dollars (especially if as you contend that the routing will be politically determinted and so will not be the most profitable choice). You suggest that because HSR will be publicly owned (and there's no guarantee of that) that it's okay. Well YTZ is publicly owned as well.
 
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All of the political labeling and class warfare talk is really distracting. Forget libertarianism and socialism. Forget questions about how privileged Porter customers are. We should really be focused on one simple question:

Does the tunnel serve broad public interest? If so, it is entitled to public funding.

However, I would answer this question in the negative:

1. The most immediate effect of the tunnel will be to shave off some traveling time for the customers of one airline. This does not strike me as being of public interest.

2. In the longer term, the tunnel may generate increased activity in the island airport, bringing more people into Toronto for business or pleasure. This could be considered to be in the public's interest. However, due to the island airport's location, we must accept that any growth is significantly limited. As well, airport growth will have negative implications for other issues of public interest, such as the revitalization/pedestrianization of the waterfront. Furthermore, even if we fully accept that airport growth is a good thing, it is unclear that a pedestrian tunnel, rather than a short ferry ride, will have any impact on people's decision to travel to Toronto.

The Pearson rail link, by contrast, offers several benefits for the public: traffic relief, significantly faster travel time for a larger group of people, the potential for far greater airport activity, the potential to act as a catalyst for more rail transit in the city, less reliance on carbon-emitting forms of transportation, etc.
 
If the tunnel serviced ppl who simply wanted to get to the island as well for free it would be public infrestructure
 
1. The most immediate effect of the tunnel will be to shave off some traveling time for the customers of one airline. This does not strike me as being of public interest.

Once someone becomes a customer of Porter, they stop being members of the public?

2. In the longer term, the tunnel may generate increased activity in the island airport, bringing more people into Toronto for business or pleasure. This could be considered to be in the public's interest.

I agree with this. I believe it is one of the best reasons to support the Island Airport.

However, due to the island airport's location, we must accept that any growth is significantly limited. As well, airport growth will have negative implications for other issues of public interest, such as the revitalization/pedestrianization of the waterfront.

I believe that it does help revitalization and pedestrianization of the waterfront. People from other cities can come directly to our waterfront and walk to places/events on the waterfront from the airport.

Increasing access to the waterfront helps bring people to the waterfront. I can't see how it would have anything but a positive effect on "pedestrianization" (except maybe right on Bathurst Street, since cabs can't cross a bridge to the island and therefore must wait on the mainland side -- and you can't blame airport supporters for that.)
 
Old foes dig in again over tunnel to island

tunneltoislandairport.jpg


Many of the key players from the last battle have returned for this one. Miller the would-be bridge slayer is now Miller the would-be tunnel terminator. Deluce the bridge backer is now Deluce the passageway proponent. Community AIR, the residents' group that vocally opposed the bridge, is now vocally opposing the tunnel.

More... http://www.thestar.com/article/686525
 

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