Time-Based Versus Distance-Based Fares

[Electrify]

With York Region Transit, you get one zone with a two hour window, or for an extra dollar you get two zones with a two hour window. The Oak Ridges Moraine acts as a buffer area, so you can get there from either zone without paying for an upgrade, and you can depart from there to either zone without paying for an upgrade as well. Personally, I'd make it so that a two-zone fare adds a third hour, especially since I could see some two-zone trips taking over two hours by transit.

Timed fares can also work a little bit like a distance fare as well. For example, if someone takes transit a moderate distance and back within two hours, the distance traveled could be comparable to someone who travels over a long distance in that same period of time. Distance-only or no stopover fares work best with commuter systems where people have set trips and are unlikely to make pit-stops on route or make spontaneous trips.

Don't forget, most people are not geography experts (which ain't a bad thing, help to keep us employed in our future careers ), so charging fares over specific distances could lead to more problems than it solves.

 

[cacruden]

Don't forget, most people are not geography experts (which ain't a bad thing, help to keep us employed in our future careers ), so charging fares over specific distances could lead to more problems than it solves.

So you are saying that people living in Toronto are stupider than many other major cities? Stupider than people in Bangkok, London and Paris?

If you want to make pit stops and use transit that way - there are options (also still based on zones) - like in London - you can buy zone based monthly passes. i.e. travel within 2 zones as often as you want. (Although that is not an option here). It is very simple - you go up to a machine in the station, pick the destination that you want - it tells you how much the ticket is and then you get a ticket that is used for entry/exit (if you exit farther than the ticket is for - you have to do an adjustment before you leave).

 

[bleeepbluuup]

Though the entire city of Vancouver is in Zone 1. Can you imagine if we stretched from Oshawa one side to Oakville the other side with only 3 zones?

But Vancouver's way smaller than Toronto.

 

[nfitz]

But Vancouver's way smaller than Toronto.

True, but commutes from the edge of the Zone 3 to Zone 1 can still be quite long, because of the geography.

 

[JWBF]

True, but commutes from the edge of the Zone 3 to Zone 1 can still be quite long, because of the geography.

Still, multiple zoning Toronto makes sense, both as an extra revenue, and convenience.

 

[doady]

Thinking about it, fare zone based system could good if the zones are smaller, and if the second zone was free. That way it is little more flexible and people who live at the boundaries of zones don't get screwed over. It is like a system with big zones that overlap instead of hard boundaries, giving exemptions to people live near the boundaries. So for example, for the GTA-Hamilton I would create at 9 fare zones, including 2 within the City of Toronto itself (instead of just one). The two zones in Toronto would act like 1 zone those who need it.

 

[dunkalunk]

I actually really like this idea, especially for making the adjacent zone free and for overlapping zones. For example, it would be a flat fee to get from Mimico (Etobicoke Zone) to Downtown (Toronto Zone), or from Mimico (Etobicoke Zone) to Mississauga Centre (Missisauga Zone). But if you wanted to go all the way to STC, you would need to pay an extra fare, even if it is inside the TTC.

However, zones need to be designed around different population centers instead of around the central downtown so it can be scalable throughout the entire GGH, and zones could only work if Metrolinx took over all transit for the GGH, or least integrated the far structure. Local municipalities and transit agencies would be responsible for running local collector routes, but it would have to be up to Metrolinx to operate routes between cities (I think TfL (London) is modelled something like this)

Zones could indeed work, but we would still need a tap-on tap-off system. You can ensure that people tap off by charging them for the entire length of the route if they don't tap off and by forcing people to tap in at subway stations and other fare-free transfers. Of course the trick is getting this type of fare system set up absolutely everywhere.

In the end I still prefer a distance-based system with the following charging setup:
Flat fare + km travelled x Mode Premium (subway, bus streetcar, BRT, LRT, GO Train/Bus (various tiers of service))

The mode premium would ensure that the same distance traveled by GO train would cost a fair amount compared to a crosstown local. You could also throw time traveled into the equation, by decreasing the price if the trip took more than a few minutes longer as was expected.

 

[ttk77]

We already have what amounts to a zoned fare system in the GTA. I commute from downtown up to Vaughn on public transit every day, and to cross the border between Toronto and the York Region you have to pay a second fare, even if staying on the TTC (the TTC is contracted to run most North/South routes through the York Region). What surprises me is the large number of people I see commuting 2+ hours each way from Scarborough all the way to Vaughn by TTC, mostly for factory work and low paying jobs - jobs that don't pay them enough to afford a car or a more expensive home near where they work.

I don't know how work/living areas are structured in those other cities with zoned fares, but here, those that would be affected most by a zoned fare system are those who are least able to afford it.

 

[cacruden]

What factories? Low paying jobs in Toronto tend to be service industry, and the wage in Toronto tend to be higher than that in other areas because of additional costs. If they are commuting 2+ hours by TTC then it is likely they are travelling all the way down to Toronto - not because they are great jobs - but because they pay more than the surrounding areas. As costs go up, the market price for low wage labour tends to adjust as well. In Bangkok there are several different modes of transit, Skytrain, Subway, Air/Con Buses, Non-Air/Con Buses, river boats, taxis, motorcycle taxis (which are the life blood in Bangkok), etc. Skytrain and subway are more expensive - Skytrain costs 15 baht (50 cents) for one station, 20 for 2 -3 stations, 25 for 4 - 5 (I think), maxing out at 40 baht to the end of the line. Subway is similar, Air-Con buses are cheaper - and still have a distance rate, non-air con buses are flat rate. I would expect the subway to cost more than buses, regional (aka go type transit) to cost more than subway. If you use tap and go cards, you get a little bit of a discount on the subway (don't think the skytrain gives you any discount). When deciding on whether to take a job, you should have to take into consideration cost of transit. The government could also adjust the personal exemption on taxes to have a cost of living index component - it does not make sense to have the personal exemption for taxes to be the same in Toronto as it is in Kingston. This index would of course take into account basic transit costs, meaning that those on the lower end in Toronto would have to earn more before falling into the first tax bracket.

 

[ttk77]

What factories? Low paying jobs in Toronto tend to be service industry, and the wage in Toronto tend to be higher than that in other areas because of additional costs.

I'm pretty certain I said they are commuting from Scarborough to Vaughn. The Factories of which I was talking are located there. Employment in the York Region tends to be more plentiful than in Toronto but housing is more expensive than places like Scarborough. Low income families often don't have the luxury of having work and home close together.

If they are commuting 2+ hours by TTC then it is likely they are travelling all the way down to Toronto - not because they are great jobs - but because they pay more than the surrounding areas.

They take the jobs there because that's where the jobs are. Most people don't have the luxury of picking and choosing which jobs they take. When you have a family and are out of work you take whatever work is offered, even if it's a 2hr commute from home.

I would expect the subway to cost more than buses, regional (aka go type transit) to cost more than subway. If you use tap and go cards, you get a little bit of a discount on the subway (don't think the skytrain gives you any discount). When deciding on whether to take a job, you should have to take into consideration cost of transit.

Are you advocating running bus service to duplicate subway service only to offer a cheaper alternative, or are you suggesting that the TTC take it's existing service and tier the prices based on the mode of transportation for each route?

The government could also adjust the personal exemption on taxes to have a cost of living index component - it does not make sense to have the personal exemption for taxes to be the same in Toronto as it is in Kingston. This index would of course take into account basic transit costs, meaning that those on the lower end in Toronto would have to earn more before falling into the first tax bracket.

While I agree with this statement in principle, it makes things very complex. The government, both federal and provincial would have to maintain exemption limits for every municipality individually for it to remain relevant over the long term. To use your example, what happens when the economic situation in Kingston changes relative to Toronto? How do exemption limits change come budget time?

On the surface I understand that the system looks more equitable when people who travel farther pay more, but there are more things to take into account than just fairness. The ones who rely most on public transit are usually also the ones who can least afford added expenses.

 

[cacruden]

The data on the difference in the cost if living is already available - there are web pages that use this data to help people calculate the salary in another city that they would have to receive - to have the "same income" as the city they are departing. It would have an impact not only in large metropolitan areas, but in the north.

I listed the diversity of transit and costs locally, since there is very little in the way of subsidy, and little in the way of protecting monopolies. Different modes of transit, cost different to operate, and this the cost to use should be associated - even if they are subsidized. I know people that currently live in Toronto and commute to Waterloo. If HSR is implemented, should we subsidize people to travel further distances. The wider area the transit covers, the greater the need to have a zoned/distance based fare. TTC buses tend to be more local, and thus there is less of a need to have a zoned fare. Subways now cross old and (soon) new city boundaries and cover larger areas - so a zoned/distance based fare becomes more reasonable.

 

[Palma]

If zoned or distance based fares exist in other major world cities I can't believe these arguments of "they cannot work here, or would be too difficult, etc, etc. It only makes sense. Why should someone having to go a short distance pay the same as someone having to go further? Everyone knows that does not make sense but of course the people who would be travelling further or the ones who would state it would not work. But for sure those living north of Steeles Ave (Vaughan) should have to pay more to get into Toronto.

 

[cacruden]

In addition - it allows for better accounting of revenue than counting riders. If you travel 20% on bus, 30% on subway line 1, and the rest on line 2 -- it is fairly easy to allocate revenue to the appropriate modes of transportation.

 

[doady]

If zoned or distance based fares exist in other major world cities I can't believe these arguments of "they cannot work here, or would be too difficult, etc, etc. It only makes sense. Why should someone having to go a short distance pay the same as someone having to go further? Everyone knows that does not make sense but of course the people who would be travelling further or the ones who would state it would not work.

Toronto already has one system that uses distance-based fares and another that uses fare zones (sort of). The question is not whether a distance-based system works, but how such a system can be fair and have the cost actually reflect the distance traveled, without being too complicated.

But for sure those living north of Steeles Ave (Vaughan) should have to pay more to get into Toronto.

Even if they are only traveling a few km? Why should someone living at Jane and Finch be forced to pay extra just to go to Highway 7 and Finch? It is just completely arbritary and unfair. If the whole Toronto area implements a distance-based system it should fix issues like this.

 

[ttk77]

If zoned or distance based fares exist in other major world cities I can't believe these arguments of "they cannot work here, or would be too difficult, etc, etc. It only makes sense. Why should someone having to go a short distance pay the same as someone having to go further? Everyone knows that does not make sense but of course the people who would be travelling further or the ones who would state it would not work. But for sure those living north of Steeles Ave (Vaughan) should have to pay more to get into Toronto.

People crossing the York Region boundary already have to pay more - the YRT fare and the TTC fare, even if the whole trip is on a TTC bus.

To say that because something works somewhere else, it will work here is naive. Cities are not identical. The distance people have to travel to get to work will vary from city to city, and in North America those distances tend to be quite a bit farther. A system made for Bangkok was designed for Bangkok, and there is no guarantee that it will for for Toronto.