Midtown Urbanist
Superstar
I recall the fields being busy during late afternoons and evenings with all kinds of recreation leagues in previous years.
|
|
|
The Toronto Tree Thread
- Thread starter Northern Light
- Start date
Northern Light
Superstar
Sunnybrook's fields are well used.
Removing them in favour of nature is not a political fight I would engage it at this point.
That said, they are very poorly situated.
Have a look:
To drive/bike in to them from the south, east or west, you would use the main entrance off Leslie.
Its a whopping 2.15km the last leg of which is going up a sizable hill.
As a pedestrian, there is a short-cut, up a staircase......
But its still 1km to get to the stairs; then a good climb; get your pre-game workout in!
There are 2 other access points from the north..........though if you didn't know they were there................
Those are off the ends of Salonica and Glen Orchy.
Transit Access of any quality is really from Eglinton/Leslie which means that huge walk follows.
There is a Bridle Path bus ......but its only every 30M and doesn't run after 7:24pm on a Sunday.
It also doesn't provide a connection east of Don Mills Rd.
If we had the budget and political boldness; stuff like this would get a total re-think.
The sports fields would move next to transit routes, busy roads, and schools.
And isolated places like this would be reserved to nature.
That said, at a whopping 70 acres, the cost of replacing these fields in a better location isn't likely to happen in my lifetime.
In the immediate area, (Bridle Path) you'd be looking at 1B in land acquisition alone, based on this MLS listing at 28M and change for 2 acres:
So, I think we may need to defer that.
Though there may room to look at using former schools and some of the table land portion of various golf courses to create both more and better located fields and possible remove 1-2 of the Sunnybrook fields in favour of more forest.
Removing them in favour of nature is not a political fight I would engage it at this point.
That said, they are very poorly situated.
Have a look:
To drive/bike in to them from the south, east or west, you would use the main entrance off Leslie.
Its a whopping 2.15km the last leg of which is going up a sizable hill.
As a pedestrian, there is a short-cut, up a staircase......
But its still 1km to get to the stairs; then a good climb; get your pre-game workout in!
There are 2 other access points from the north..........though if you didn't know they were there................
Those are off the ends of Salonica and Glen Orchy.
Transit Access of any quality is really from Eglinton/Leslie which means that huge walk follows.
There is a Bridle Path bus ......but its only every 30M and doesn't run after 7:24pm on a Sunday.
It also doesn't provide a connection east of Don Mills Rd.
If we had the budget and political boldness; stuff like this would get a total re-think.
The sports fields would move next to transit routes, busy roads, and schools.
And isolated places like this would be reserved to nature.
That said, at a whopping 70 acres, the cost of replacing these fields in a better location isn't likely to happen in my lifetime.
In the immediate area, (Bridle Path) you'd be looking at 1B in land acquisition alone, based on this MLS listing at 28M and change for 2 acres:
So, I think we may need to defer that.
Though there may room to look at using former schools and some of the table land portion of various golf courses to create both more and better located fields and possible remove 1-2 of the Sunnybrook fields in favour of more forest.
kali
Active Member
Sugar on the left, Norway on the right? What's the discolouration?
Northern Light
Superstar
The discolouration is Tar Spot.
Can affect Silver and Red Maples, though, relatively rare in my experience. Common problem for Norway Maple, largely cosmetic, doesn't kill the tree.,
Tar spot of maple | The Morton Arboretum
To plant and protect trees for a greener, healthier, and more beautiful world
www.mortonarb.org
Leaf on the right is 100% Norway
Leaf on the left doesn't look like Sugar to me.........could be.............but I'm thinking an Acer Freeman is more likely.
Acer × freemanii | Landscape Plants | Oregon State University
landscapeplants.oregonstate.edu
There's a good page here, from Virginia oddly, that tells you how to tell the native maples apart.
Doesn't cover non-natives or hybrids.
How to Identify Maple Trees | Waterford Citizens' Association (WCA) of Waterford Virginia
This page describes how to identify red maple, norway maple, sugar maple, silver maple, and black maple trees. Both leaf and bark are shown.
www.waterfordcitizens.org
Johnny Au
Senior Member
Playing cricket must be very intense, given how the cricket ovals are among the least accessible fields in Sunnybrook Park.Sunnybrook's fields are well used.
Removing them in favour of nature is not a political fight I would engage it at this point.
That said, they are very poorly situated.
Have a look:
View attachment 263008
To drive/bike in to them from the south, east or west, you would use the main entrance off Leslie.
Its a whopping 2.15km the last leg of which is going up a sizable hill.
As a pedestrian, there is a short-cut, up a staircase......
But its still 1km to get to the stairs; then a good climb; get your pre-game workout in!
View attachment 263009
There are 2 other access points from the north..........though if you didn't know they were there................
View attachment 263010
View attachment 263011
Those are off the ends of Salonica and Glen Orchy.
Transit Access of any quality is really from Eglinton/Leslie which means that huge walk follows.
There is a Bridle Path bus ......but its only every 30M and doesn't run after 7:24pm on a Sunday.
It also doesn't provide a connection east of Don Mills Rd.
View attachment 263012
If we had the budget and political boldness; stuff like this would get a total re-think.
The sports fields would move next to transit routes, busy roads, and schools.
And isolated places like this would be reserved to nature.
That said, at a whopping 70 acres, the cost of replacing these fields in a better location isn't likely to happen in my lifetime.
In the immediate area, (Bridle Path) you'd be looking at 1B in land acquisition alone, based on this MLS listing at 28M and change for 2 acres:
So, I think we may need to defer that.
Though there may room to look at using former schools and some of the table land portion of various golf courses to create both more and better located fields and possible remove 1-2 of the Sunnybrook fields in favour of more forest.
Northern Light
Superstar
Ok.
We need to talk caliper (the big size trees with stakes) that the City plants in ravines/natural parks.
I'm not going to mention where..........for the moment, or even most of the species.
But I am going to tell you I just walked through a park space where the City planted a dozen trees only 2 of which were true natives.
Now, none were native to other continents.
Some were clones of naturally-occurring natives.
But a majority were trees native to the central or southern U.S.
I'm not enthusiastic about that when it comes to street trees.
But I understand the argument (though I think its flawed). Which is planning for climate change.
I think there are people in Forestry who misunderstand the science........
It is true, that as climate warms, the zone that Toronto is in will likely shift.
In so doing, it will make those species for which Toronto is their southern limit no longer reproduce...........its unlikely to kill many established trees.
It may, but if the climate change is that drastic or extreme, we're all in deep trouble.
The principle change is that certain more southerly species will do better here, be able to reproduce here for the first time.
But that's a shift that occurs when the climate shifts; not yet.
Moving a species 100km north......from London-area to Toronto say, is something I can reasonably accept.
Its something that would/will likely occur anyway, you're just nudging it ahead by 10 or 20 years.
But moving something from Tennessee..............that's way more problematic. (over 1,000km)
Tennessee rarely gets much below zero Celsius; a good deal warmer than Toronto's coldest days.
Curiously, Toronto's peak-temperatures already compare w/Nashville.
In the most probable climate change scenario, even with mitigation Toronto's climate is unlikely to be comparable to Nashville's {annual lows) for several decades.
No tree native to Tennessee will make it here on its own for at least 20 years, and probably more like 40+
The problem isn't merely one of survivablility or invasiveness.
Its one of not serving the needs of local wildlife...........
And possibly bringing in and sustaining pests that otherwise wouldn't be here yet.
How frustrating.
We need to talk caliper (the big size trees with stakes) that the City plants in ravines/natural parks.
I'm not going to mention where..........for the moment, or even most of the species.
But I am going to tell you I just walked through a park space where the City planted a dozen trees only 2 of which were true natives.
Now, none were native to other continents.
Some were clones of naturally-occurring natives.
But a majority were trees native to the central or southern U.S.
I'm not enthusiastic about that when it comes to street trees.
But I understand the argument (though I think its flawed). Which is planning for climate change.
I think there are people in Forestry who misunderstand the science........
It is true, that as climate warms, the zone that Toronto is in will likely shift.
In so doing, it will make those species for which Toronto is their southern limit no longer reproduce...........its unlikely to kill many established trees.
It may, but if the climate change is that drastic or extreme, we're all in deep trouble.
The principle change is that certain more southerly species will do better here, be able to reproduce here for the first time.
But that's a shift that occurs when the climate shifts; not yet.
Moving a species 100km north......from London-area to Toronto say, is something I can reasonably accept.
Its something that would/will likely occur anyway, you're just nudging it ahead by 10 or 20 years.
But moving something from Tennessee..............that's way more problematic. (over 1,000km)
Tennessee rarely gets much below zero Celsius; a good deal warmer than Toronto's coldest days.
Curiously, Toronto's peak-temperatures already compare w/Nashville.
In the most probable climate change scenario, even with mitigation Toronto's climate is unlikely to be comparable to Nashville's {annual lows) for several decades.
No tree native to Tennessee will make it here on its own for at least 20 years, and probably more like 40+
The problem isn't merely one of survivablility or invasiveness.
Its one of not serving the needs of local wildlife...........
And possibly bringing in and sustaining pests that otherwise wouldn't be here yet.
How frustrating.
Last edited:
Northern Light
Superstar
Ok, I have something more to say about the above now..............
Here's one specific I will put out there..........the City planted European Alder. (not the only problem)
A non-native, invasive species........in a natural ravine park, directly opposite a location where City crews cut the exact same species down just last year and treated it with pesticide.
I honestly wish I could say more, but in a public-fora, I want to leave it at that for the moment, even under a pseudonym.
Though, if any of you wish to speak publicly on this at committee or to media, I will be happy to provide detail privately.
I am so exasperated!
Here's one specific I will put out there..........the City planted European Alder. (not the only problem)
A non-native, invasive species........in a natural ravine park, directly opposite a location where City crews cut the exact same species down just last year and treated it with pesticide.
I honestly wish I could say more, but in a public-fora, I want to leave it at that for the moment, even under a pseudonym.
Though, if any of you wish to speak publicly on this at committee or to media, I will be happy to provide detail privately.
I am so exasperated!
Northern Light
Superstar
We've talked about the importance of species; but less about the importance of location for tree root growth.
It tends to get mentioned in respect of trees in sidewalk pits, but not in lawns/softscape.
Saw this pic today and felt it was such a perfect showpiece.
Every tree is this picture was planted at the same time.
Every tree is the same species.
The only tangible difference is location of planting.
From: @seanjamesdesign on Twitter
Note the large specimen to the right is in a front yard, with lots of growing space and back from any road salt as well.
The mid-sized specimen on the left has a smaller area between the sidewalk and curb, plus more exposure to salt.
The smallest specimen, in the middle, is likewise located with with an even smaller area for root growth and maximum salt exposure too! (road + 2 drive ways)
Root zone space is likely the large culprit here, rather than salt given a quite cul-de-sac and the species in question; but salt may also be a factor.
It tends to get mentioned in respect of trees in sidewalk pits, but not in lawns/softscape.
Saw this pic today and felt it was such a perfect showpiece.
Every tree is this picture was planted at the same time.
Every tree is the same species.
The only tangible difference is location of planting.
From: @seanjamesdesign on Twitter
Note the large specimen to the right is in a front yard, with lots of growing space and back from any road salt as well.
The mid-sized specimen on the left has a smaller area between the sidewalk and curb, plus more exposure to salt.
The smallest specimen, in the middle, is likewise located with with an even smaller area for root growth and maximum salt exposure too! (road + 2 drive ways)
Root zone space is likely the large culprit here, rather than salt given a quite cul-de-sac and the species in question; but salt may also be a factor.
afransen
Senior Member
The middle one was likely an unrealistically optimistic planting location, unless the driveways were widened since it was planted.
Northern Light
Superstar
A look at some street trees on St. George.
Mostly best-in-class examples of street tree planting, that show how you can great size and health in street trees if you put them in the right conditions.
But stay tuned for the last one.......which shows what happens when you don't follow those best practices.
Now.....the very same University and City................also did this bit:
Lessons in the obvious..............those trees (including the non-native Crimson Norway Maples...) are so short because they are relatively recent...........
Because they keep having to replace dead trees.
If you have to replace the tree more than twice in 20 years.............its not the tree...........its the condition you planted it in.
Note the pit at grade.......smaller, less soil volume.........and for sure......way more salt getting in there.
Change the design!
Mostly best-in-class examples of street tree planting, that show how you can great size and health in street trees if you put them in the right conditions.
But stay tuned for the last one.......which shows what happens when you don't follow those best practices.
Now.....the very same University and City................also did this bit:
Lessons in the obvious..............those trees (including the non-native Crimson Norway Maples...) are so short because they are relatively recent...........
Because they keep having to replace dead trees.
If you have to replace the tree more than twice in 20 years.............its not the tree...........its the condition you planted it in.
Note the pit at grade.......smaller, less soil volume.........and for sure......way more salt getting in there.
Change the design!
Northern Light
Superstar
Ok............more wasted money and time from Parks, Forestry and Recreation.
Several caliper (staked) trees were planted in an east end park recently.
They were planted directly where the stalls for the Farmer's Market in that park normally go.
As a result; City staff now have to spend time and money digging them back up and moving them, filling in the holes and resodding.
Sigh.
Thousands of dollars down the toilet.
Several caliper (staked) trees were planted in an east end park recently.
They were planted directly where the stalls for the Farmer's Market in that park normally go.
As a result; City staff now have to spend time and money digging them back up and moving them, filling in the holes and resodding.
Sigh.
Thousands of dollars down the toilet.
Northern Light
Superstar
New York Time's article on rising troubles w/New England Forests.
They're now facing Emerald Ash Borer as we are (but mostly have) the last few years.
They're also face changes to do w/climate change.
And new pests abound.
One mentioned in this article is a potentially serious problem in Ontario:
Hemlocks are being wiped out by an aphid-like pest, the hemlock woolly adelgid
On top of that, they have a shortage of arborists.
.
www.nytimes.com
They're now facing Emerald Ash Borer as we are (but mostly have) the last few years.
They're also face changes to do w/climate change.
And new pests abound.
One mentioned in this article is a potentially serious problem in Ontario:
Hemlocks are being wiped out by an aphid-like pest, the hemlock woolly adelgid
On top of that, they have a shortage of arborists.
.
New England’s Forests Are Sick. They Need More Tree Doctors. (Published 2020)
Climate change is taking a toll on woodlands in the Northeast.
Northern Light
Superstar
I previously showed this example at an earlier point...................how not to plant trees;
This is the 'after/why' shot: (from Livmore) Note the small opening for the trees; sidewalks are not reinforced/floating; trees are way too close to the building.
One dead, one soon to be.
For the record: the above is not really worth replanting into.
If I had to; I'd take a shot w/Honey Locust since its the most tolerant of crappy conditions.
But really, start over; dig it all up...........do it properly.
If utilities preclude more room underground; then go with a large, above-ground planter.
Otherwise, might as well pave it over.
This is the 'after/why' shot: (from Livmore) Note the small opening for the trees; sidewalks are not reinforced/floating; trees are way too close to the building.
One dead, one soon to be.
For the record: the above is not really worth replanting into.
If I had to; I'd take a shot w/Honey Locust since its the most tolerant of crappy conditions.
But really, start over; dig it all up...........do it properly.
If utilities preclude more room underground; then go with a large, above-ground planter.
Otherwise, might as well pave it over.
Last edited:
reteequa
Active Member
Its really too bad I keep seeing this type of planting especially in front of shitty developments
Northern Light
Superstar
In today's posts, by myself and others, we can see much better designs in use at 700 Bay, 11 Wellesley West (Wellesley on the Park), and various other sites.
There really has been a material improvement in the default planting quality the last few years.
That said..........developments like this somehow slip through.
I really don't know offhand whether this is someone at the City not reading the plans properly and passing stuff they shouldn't............
Or a case of as-built not achieving the plans.
Whatever; this sort of nonsense is a waste of money and time.
The developer's, the City's .........there's no winner in building something that just doesn't have much of a chance of working.
The City needs to read everything; and insist on quality.
There will always be cases where undeground utilities and various other issues conspire to prevent good tree planting conditions.
In such cases, best to consider other ways to create a beautiful pedestrian space.
Decorative pavers, Flower Baskets etc.
Dead trees are not a value-add.