The province takes charge on 407 - sort of

[Swamp Thing]

That doesn't cover a fraction of the cost. Transit users pay about $1,000 a year simply for the passes. The Ontario gas tax is only 14.7 ¢/L. Assuming a very poor mileage of 100 km/ 10 L, thats about 1.5 ¢/km. So someone who commutes 25 km each way to work (many commute less!), and works 250 days a year, is only commuting 12,500 km a year; which is only $187.50

License (sic) plate stickers are not expensive either ... even with the Toronto tax ... and heck, many of use who use transit, still pay those, as it doesn't mean we don't own cars!

Ontario motorists pay more than $7 billion annually to the provincial and federal governments in gas taxes, licensing and registration.

http://www.caasco.com/community/roads-highways/

This does not include municipal charges for registration, public parking and more. Nor does it include mandated safety inspections, emissions testing, coolant and tire recycling and a thousand other burdens on citizens deemed to be fair game because the current paltry transit systems don't meet their families' needs.

In virtually every case when a new tax, charge, surcharge or fee is introduced targeting drivers, the various governments have declared that the revenues will be spent on improving the roads for all users (pedestrians, cyclists and motorists alike), and on developing transit to eventually eliminate the current pressing need for cars.

In fact, a substantial portion of that revenue is directed to areas that are unrelated to transportation infrastructure, leaving transit initiatives out in the cold, and prompting the government to go running back to motorists to demand yet more money.

 

[nfitz]

Ontario motorists pay more than $7 billion annually to the provincial and federal governments in gas taxes, licensing and registration.

Why does it matter what they pay the federal government? Roads and transit are provincial. And a good chunk of that is GST. It seems disingenious to suggest that the 5% GST on gas should get spent on roads. Should the 5% GST paid on beer get paid to upgrade breweries? What about the 5% GST on a shirt; should it go to subsidize department stores?

Clearly cars are getting the better part of the bargain here. And I'm saying this as a car-owner who has driven 30-40,000 km most years.

 

[UD2]

Why does it matter what they pay the federal government? Roads and transit are provincial. And a good chunk of that is GST. It seems disingenious to suggest that the 5% GST on gas should get spent on roads. Should the 5% GST paid on beer get paid to upgrade breweries? What about the 5% GST on a shirt; should it go to subsidize department stores?

Clearly cars are getting the better part of the bargain here. And I'm saying this as a car-owner who has driven 30-40,000 km most years.

That doesn't make sense to me. A road is public property and is maintained by the government.

A brewery is private and the money that are used to upgrade its physical plant usually comes from its profits.

The 5% GST that's paid on beer probably, in these days, went to pay for all the public transit investments.

I fail to see an effective arugment here.

 

[Swamp Thing]

Why does it matter what they pay the federal government? Roads and transit are provincial.

It matters because the federal government, like the provincial governments, has claimed that the tax revenue it collects is returned to the provinces/territories and municipalities to fund large infrastructure projects, chiefly transit and highways.

And a good chunk of that is GST.

Only 5% of the average 35% of the price of a litre of gas (31% in Ontario, I believe) is GST. The rest is provincial and federal excise taxes and tarrifs.

It seems disingenious to suggest that the 5% GST on gas should get spent on roads. Should the 5% GST paid on beer get paid to upgrade breweries? What about the 5% GST on a shirt; should it go to subsidize department stores?

I am not suggesting any of that. You are the only one who wrote that here.

I am suggesting that it is disingenuous on the part of the provincial and federal governments to collect taxes for the express purpose of funding transportation, only to spend the majority of it on other priorities (whatever they may be).

Clearly cars are getting the better part of the bargain here. And I'm saying this as a car-owner who has driven 30-40,000 km most years.

Clearly car-owners and transit users alike are getting screwed. Only transit users don't have to pay an extra $7 billion+ annually for the privilege.

 

[UD2]

That doesn't cover a fraction of the cost. Transit users pay about $1,000 a year simply for the passes. The Ontario gas tax is only 14.7 ¢/L. Assuming a very poor mileage of 100 km/ 10 L, thats about 1.5 ¢/km. So someone who commutes 25 km each way to work (many commute less!), and works 250 days a year, is only commuting 12,500 km a year; which is only $187.50

License (sic) plate stickers are not expensive either ... even with the Toronto tax ... and heck, many of use who use transit, still pay those, as it doesn't mean we don't own cars!

With gas taxes so low, it's no where near fair!

When the Ontario government - pre-Harris - started building 407, it was going to take 20-years to build from 401 to Markham Road. In other words, it wouldn't actually be finished yet; that's what private got you.

1.Your gas tax prices are wrong. Petrol Canada states that in 2008 35% of cost of gas are taxes. By today’s rate, that’s effectively 35 cent/L

2.An average car drive at least 20000KM per year, with many cars driving as much as 60000KM per year (mine when I was commuting). By your estimate a car only drive 12500KM per year, which doesn’t happen often.
So let’s assume that cars average 27000KM per Year. The gas taxes become is 0.35*(27000/100*10)=$945/Year.

Add: oil change + maintenance every 5000/10000 km. Oil changes averages $30 and checkups average $80. So 3 oil changes and two full checkups. (30*3+80*2)*0.15=$37.5

Add: various maintenance fees to replace things like air filters, drive belts, tires, shock struts, spark plugs, brake pads. This has costed me at least 150 per year. So add 150*0.15=$22.5

Add: Car washes. Twice a month average. 10*2*12*0.15=$36.

Add: Insurance. Let’s just say it averages 200 per month. 200*12*0.15=$360 (I’m assuming these are the amount of taxes we pay for insurance policies, I’ve never really cared)

Now. The cost of this is 945+37.5+22.5+36+360=$1401 per year in revenue. I don’t know about you but I’m sure my tire doesn’t cost $1401 per year in road wear. Oh and I'm not including the cost of replacing tires and reparing flats. But you can just add to the cost. A set of tires cost easily $500. Deperciate them over 3.7 Years.

Then. Add the amount of income taxes that Gas companies, car shops, insurance companies, car parts makers and car washes pay to the government per year (I don’t have this number). This will tell you how much revenue drivers are generating for the government just by driving.

To add to that. Take your sales and service tax from the sale of a car. Let’s say cars average $30000. 30000*0.15=4500. And let’s say a car gets driven on average by the first owner for an average of 7 years (this number seem very high but I’ll be nice to you). That’s 4500 capitalized over 7 years. 4500/7=$642.9 per year.

Let’s say that the car get resold on average twice before it hit the junkyard. Let’s assume the taxes for these resells add up to $1000 (this number is too low to be true but again I’m being nice). Let’ say that the resells take place over the course of 5 years. 1000/5=$200 per year.

Now add these numbers up and you can tell me how much revenue to the government a driver bring in for the government.

Next make this comparison. How much money does the government subsidize the TTC per ride, and how many an average person take per year. So how much money does an average transit user cost the government vs. what you pay.

And how much money a car driver cost the government vs. what they bring in.


As for the 407. The reason it built was because it was tolled, not because it went private.

 

[kettal]

My pet rock business pays GST on every pet rock, and the pet rock babysitters pay their income taxes too. So my pet rock industry is vital to the tax revenue of the government and the government should provide more services to my pet rocks.

Speaking of which, my business is near bankruptcy and needs a huge bail out asap.

 

[waterloowarrior]

Provincial roads in Ontario recover costs fairly well (not including external costs...! like healthcare/cost of increased accidents/deaths etc) but municipal roads are an entirely different story. In most places the operating costs of roads are around 100% subsidized through property taxes, while transit is 25-50% subsidized. Capital costs are a bit different since development charges can fund part of it, but again they can fund 100% of the cost of new roads for growth but only 90% of the cost of new transit for growth. I think the average for roads in Ontario municipalities is around 75% subsidized (ie 25% cost recovery) as of 2000 including both operating and capital costs.

note that the majority of road expenses in Ontario are municipal

 

[doady]

The 407 should be the model for all highways in Ontario. Selling the 407 and making drivers pay was the only good thing Harris government ever did.

 

[jks]

^^Um, no! It was a horrible idea. The fact that tolls were introduced was the good part, but the bad part was that all that money went into the pockets of a private corporation. I think all highways should be tolled, with revenue (that isn't used to maintain the road) going towards transit.

On top of that, Harris got a horrible deal on the highway, it would be worth much more.

 

[UD2]

Provincial roads in Ontario recover costs fairly well (not including external costs...! like healthcare/cost of increased accidents/deaths etc) but municipal roads are an entirely different story. In most places the operating costs of roads are around 100% subsidized through property taxes, while transit is 25-50% subsidized. Capital costs are a bit different since development charges can fund part of it, but again they can fund 100% of the cost of new roads for growth but only 90% of the cost of new transit for growth. I think the average for roads in Ontario municipalities is around 75% subsidized (ie 25% cost recovery) as of 2000 including both operating and capital costs.

note that the majority of road expenses in Ontario are municipal

Roads are funded 100% through property taxes. You forgot that property taxes are the only source of income a city have above begging for money.

You also forgot that without the 75% subsidized road system, your transit buses will be running dirt tires and trial shocks.

Without roads, there usually is no business, infact, no people.

So when you say 75%. May I add that those are the 75% that people are begging to pay?

 

[waterloowarrior]

 

[doady]

^^Um, no! It was a horrible idea. The fact that tolls were introduced was the good part, but the bad part was that all that money went into the pockets of a private corporation.

But the greed of the private corporation is what makes the 407 very expensive. If it was controlled by the provincial government, the tolls would be too low.

 

[nfitz]

1.Your gas tax prices are wrong. Petrol Canada states that in 2008 35% of cost of gas are taxes. By today’s rate, that’s effectively 35 cent/L.

No they are not. Ontario collects only 14.7 cents on the litre. They'd collect almost 8 cents if they simply collected PST. The rest is federal. (10 cents federal tax, and ... with gas near $1 about 5 cents GST). That's about 30 cents on the dollar ... 30% ... not sure where 35% comes from ... but that may have been true when gas was cheaper ... back at 90 cents a litre or so.

 

[lordmandeep]

Speaking of which, my business is near bankruptcy and needs a huge bail out asap.

why not show a loss and do not have to pay income taxes.


I have seen people buy a business for around 150k...

Have a time frame to pay if off in 3-4 years. Meaning paying about 3-4 k a month.

They show a loss the first two years and a profit in the last year and then sell the business over the original price. All the way you still make some profit from the store every month.

So you make profit from the business and then sell it above 150k.

Its tax evasion but very very common. I know a lot of illegal schemes, seen them all over my area.

 

[Swamp Thing]

That's about 30 cents on the dollar ... 30% ... not sure where 35% comes from ...

PetroCan's advertising claims 35% total tax, but I believe this refers to is the national average.

So Ontario is not the worst province when it comes to taxing gasoline.