The province of Toronto?

[rbt]

^ I disagree.

We will not have a Province of Toronto until the taxes reaped from Torontonians are returned as investments in Toronto.

You want a Country of Toronto then; segregating the GTA out of Ontario won't change the fiscal situation very much. We could increase taxes but we could do that now too. You don't need to look further than Toronto Property tax rates over the last decade to see how that argument would be resolved.

GTA would be massively in the "have", more so than Alberta, and much of the rest of Ontario strongly in the "have not" category; substantial equalization transfers would apply.

Absolutely no other province would vote for a Province of Toronto without ensuring equalization is maintained and Toronto doesn't even have any natural resource revenue it can pull out of the equation (most provinces have at least one industry that is treated as an exception).

 

[WislaHD]

You want a Country of Toronto then; segregating the GTA out of Ontario won't change the fiscal situation very much. We could increase taxes but we could do that now too. You don't need to look further than Toronto Property tax rates over the last decade to see how that argument would be resolved.

GTA would be massively in the "have", more so than Alberta, and much of the rest of Ontario strongly in the "have not" category; substantial equalization transfers would apply.

Absolutely no other province would vote for a Province of Toronto without ensuring equalization is maintained and Toronto doesn't even have any natural resource revenue it can pull out of the equation (most provinces have at least one industry that is treated as an exception).

I'm not asking for 100% of taxes to go to Toronto.

The current split of taxes is approximately 40% to the Feds, 40% to the Province, and 10% to City Hall.

I want that 40% of taxes that goes to the Province to return to the City of Toronto.

Yes, we have the property tax. But, it is the worst tax possible to use to fund the infrastructure and service needs of the City of Toronto. It is highly regressive, and highly visible, compared to the income tax (Feds) and sales tax (Province). This makes it politically unpalatable to raise. There is a reason that of all revenue sources given to municipalities, the province chose that one.

 

[calimehtar]

For what it's worth I'm not suggesting the GTA should try to exempt itself from Canada or Ontario, taxation-wise. But I do think the region should be shielded from political interference in elections and transit planning. It should have the power to enact new taxes without permission. I like the way Waterfront Toronto, the GTAA and to a lesser degree GO and Metrolinx operate at arm's length from the political system, and a bit more like private companies but with a very clear mandate. I think that's a good model for urban and transitt planning and a worthy political experiment.

 

[gweed123]

Always an interesting concept for discussion. It seems that the boundaries of any such theoretical new province is pretty elastic, depending on the perspective of the poster (nobody seems to have discussed whether The Suburbs should be in or out, because it seems that some city core folks figure that their counterparts in Scarborough, North York and Etobicoke are of a different world).

To me, the border of the future Province of Toronto (or whatever it winds up being called) should be the more or less the same as the outer boundary of the Greenbelt (https://goo.gl/images/nKAbTJ), minus northern Durham Region and the Niagara Escarpment extension up to the Bruce Peninsula. This would ensure that any development that remained in "Ontario" would be outside of these sensitive lands.

As for sub-national units (Provinces, States, etc), my personal belief is that they should be relatively economically homogeneous, and should share the same over-arching policy goals. For example, the GTA is focused mainly on financial and service sector jobs, with a little bit of manufacturing thrown in. The biggest issues are housing and transportation. For Northern Ontario, the primary focus is resource development, and just jobs in general. It's very difficult to balance both of those very different needs with the same government without someone feeling left out or getting the short end of the stick.

Canada's Provincial structure needs to be re-adapted for the 21st century. I personally lean more towards shifting more responsibility to the Federal government and less towards Provinces anyway. For example, I think Healthcare should be a Federal mandate, not a Provincial one. When you look at S.91 and 92 of the Constitution, the division made sense in the 1860s, but it doesn't make as much sense now. Healthcare was a very minor expense, and the average student only went to school until Grade 8. Now Healthcare and Education account for more than half of all Provincial expenditures, and the standards vary widely from Province to Province.

With more responsibility shifted to the Federal government, "city-state"-like entities like the provinces of Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, and the National Capital Region could actually work (if they didn't have to deal with things like healthcare). It would allow these sub-national units to focus solely on their priorities, without having to perform a balancing act with all of the varying interests within their Province (mainly the rural vs urban divide).

 

[kEiThZ]

Heartland-hinterland model. It's always been this way. I think people forget that a large part of Toronto's economy is all the money made in the hinterlands flowing through Toronto. Which is why it's a tough sell in the rest of Ontario and Canada to argue that Toronto should get a lot more of federal and provincial spending (though I agree there should get some more investment).

Also, this study from years ago says it's not the City of Toronto that's really doing the heavy financial lifting but the 905 belt:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/new...t-for-confederation-in-ontario/article743713/

What's really needed in Toronto is a regional government. Something like the old Metro council but for most of the GTA. In that arrangement, Toronto could even be de-amalgamated. Leave all transportation, policing, education, public health, libraries and parks and rec to the regional government. Your local council is only involved in planning and bylaws and ceremonial stuff.

 

[Mading]

I would rather see Toronto become a Special Administrtative Region comparable to Hong Kong. The Basic Law adopts the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights as its mini constitution separate from that of the People's Republic of China. Should Toronto have its own Basic Law, perhaps also based on the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, this would mean an end to the separate school system which conflicts with that Covenant. So that would actually raise Toronto's human rights' standard compared to the rest of Canada.

On the economic front, this would allow Toronto to adopt its own independent trade policy. Should Toronto adopt unilateral global free trade and then just negotiate common packaging and labelling, phytosanitary, and other such rules, it could get a much more favourable trade deal from both the US and Canada and probably other states too.

If Toronto could control its own immigration, it would probably look something like Singapores' whereby it could accept more immigrants but make access to social services more difficult, and so attract more self-sufficient immigrants.

 

[lenaitch]

I would rather see Toronto become a Special Administrtative Region comparable to Hong Kong. The Basic Law adopts the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights as its mini constitution separate from that of the People's Republic of China. Should Toronto have its own Basic Law, perhaps also based on the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, this would mean an end to the separate school system which conflicts with that Covenant. So that would actually raise Toronto's human rights' standard compared to the rest of Canada.

On the economic front, this would allow Toronto to adopt its own independent trade policy. Should Toronto adopt unilateral global free trade and then just negotiate common packaging and labelling, phytosanitary, and other such rules, it could get a much more favourable trade deal from both the US and Canada and probably other states too.

If Toronto could control its own immigration, it would probably look something like Singapores' whereby it could accept more immigrants but make access to social services more difficult, and so attract more self-sufficient immigrants.

Most of the esoteric points are above my mental pay grade, but I would think that to have a meaningful trade deal both sides need something to trade. What is Toronto's output of things like durable goods, raw materials, energy, agricultural products; things like that.

Some of the powers you are suggesting are constitutionally matters of the federal government. They would require an amendment, and we know how much success we've had with those.

 

[Mading]

Given the improbability of even a Province of Toronto, I gave myself some leeway to dream.