The Pittsburgh T

[Brandon716]

Pittsburgh has one of the US's most high grade LRT systems. It operates mostly in its own right of way, downtown operates as a full fledged subway system with raised platforms, many of the suburban locations also have raised platforms. The stations have capacity to use 8 cars per train, but only use 4 cars per train during rush hour, and 2 cars per train for much of service outside rush hour.

Call it the subway, call it light rail, but most Pittsburghers call it the "T" similar to what people call their system in Boston.

Here are a few photos courtesy of world.nycsubway.org and various google searches. And included are a few Youtube links.

MAP

Gateway Center T station
above ground

below ground

Wood St T station
above ground

below ground

Steel Plaza T station

Youtube video of train coming in Steel Plaza:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=NSmBms78sk8



Here is what a suburban styled platform station looks like:

Here is Mt Lebanon stop on a 42S train:

Dormont Junction:

Pittsburgh's hills can be rather scenic on the ride:

Other Youtube vids:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=nMrtloXcbUk

http://youtube.com/watch?v=LAiZL6SISI0

http://youtube.com/watch?v=VS5BSZ_bTKY

And currently there is a 1.6 mile extension going on to get to the north shore across downtown, and they are digging tunnels as we speak:

http://www.theboretotheshore.com/

 

[Mustapha]

Wonderful for Pittsburgh.

Why can't we Torontonians take an LRT to Pearson, or Mississauga Square One mall or the Toronto Zoo?

 

[Brandon716]

Hmm, Toronto should stick to heavy rail and forget opening any LRT lines.

Pittsburgh is spending half a billion dollars extending the T just 1.6 miles to the north shore to connect two ball stadiums.

If you have to spend basically the same amount of money on building a high quality LRT system, why not just get the real deal? I mean in Pittsburgh this makes sense, its a smaller city, but Toronto is an emerging world center of culture and commerce with a very large urban population.

I'd only support heavy rail between Scarborough and Pearson. Anything less would be a waste of precious transit funding.

 

[kEiThZ]

Yeah, this is an excellent model for T.O. Very euro, actually....which is kind of unusual for a US city.

Despite the criticisms of Transit City, hopefully its a template on which to commence network building like this....

 

[Brandon716]

You've never been to Pittsburgh I assume? For an American city its very Euro, and its the largest city I've ever been to with a tiny, insignificant highway system. A matter of fact, I-276 from the airport doesn't even get above 2 lanes in each direction right up into downtown practically save for some interchanges.

Most people get around by transit and old-style streets as opposed to interstates and etc.

 

[kEiThZ]

Been there...just haven't spent much time there....nice place....

 

[Hipster Duck]

Hmm, Toronto should stick to heavy rail and forget opening any LRT lines.

Pittsburgh is spending half a billion dollars extending the T just 1.6 miles to the north shore to connect two ball stadiums.

If you have to spend basically the same amount of money on building a high quality LRT system, why not just get the real deal? I mean in Pittsburgh this makes sense, its a smaller city, but Toronto is an emerging world center of culture and commerce with a very large urban population.

I'd only support heavy rail between Scarborough and Pearson. Anything less would be a waste of precious transit funding.

Exactly. Sometimes it takes an out-of-towner to tell this to Torontonians. LRT worked great for San Diegans and Calgarians, but when you live in a ciy where certain surface bus routes have greater ridership than some entire American light rail systems, something of a greater magnitude than LRT is desired.

 

[kEiThZ]

Exactly. Sometimes it takes an out-of-towner to tell this to Torontonians. LRT worked great for San Diegans and Calgarians, but when you live in a ciy where certain surface bus routes have greater ridership than some entire American light rail systems, something of a greater magnitude than LRT is desired.

I respectfully disagree. It's about system efficiency. Just because we have heavily used buses doesn't mean we have the ridership to justify heavy rail. Ideally, a sound transportation policy would lay out a long term plan and transition.....bus-->BRT-->LRT-->Subway

 

[Brandon716]

But Toronto already has a light rail system, the streetcars are essentially light rail. They run in-grade so its slower than a high grade LRT system like the T in Pittsburgh, but Pittsburgh's system is designed for a different kind of city. They don't have the need for a heavy rail system, so they created a hybrid using high grade LRT cars that both serve as a subway with slightly less capacity than the bigger cities.

There is another problem with starting a NEW LRT network with different cars and stuff in Toronto. The TTC would have to invest in yet another technology, different gague tracks, and the costs would be astronomical.

There is already a certain style of subway car used in Toronto, there are already depots to take care of the equipment, and it only makes sense to use the same TTC subway technology already in use and expand it.

Adding yet another rail technology to TTC's network is totally irresponsible. Might as well get used to $5 single-use tickets if that occurs.

And for what? Because of a romantic view of how European cities look? Toronto already has the largest streetcar network in North America, its romantic enough.

I strongly advocate TTC adding heavy rail subway lines and making a serious investment in it. Toronto is a world city now, and its very large. It doesn't need a small town setup that costs too much to maintain and doesn't move enough people.

 

[Brandon716]

BTW, just look at the Scarborough RT for an example of what not to do. They could have just expanded the subway from Kennedy to Scarborough Centre, but NOOOOO, so now its all screwed up and will cost 10x as much as it would have if they just built it right decades ago.

 

[kEiThZ]

I guess you are unfamiliar with the history of the SRT. The SRT was imposed on the TTC by the province since UTDC (then a Crown corporation) needed a place to demo their technology. If you go to Kennedy station you can still see the old platform underneath for what the system was supposed to be, a grade separated streetcar line....that also explains the useless loop at Kennedy station.

And while Toronto needs more heavy rail lines, given the stinginess of our other levels of government, we have to be judicious with our funds. Heavy rail should be reserved for corridors with a lot of ridership (15 000 - 20 000+ pax/hr/direction). The rest should rightly be light rail which is both cheaper to build and maintain. In the case of the SRT, the TTC itself estimates ridership at no more than 10 000, which could be accomodated by an LRT line.

While I agree with you about extending the BD line upto Scarborough Town Centre, there are issues here. Changing the current format will result in some angry ratepayers who will see property values drop. A lot of people along the current line will be upset when the TTC goes from 6 stations to 3, and thats if they keep the current alignment. Ultimately, however, that will likely have to be the TTC's solution espcially if the Sheppard line is completed as planned and terminates at STC. Then it would make sense to extend the BD line to complete the loop.

As I have pointed out in the SRT replacement threat, and gotten a few nods on it, the optimum solution would be to replace the SRT till STC with an extension of the BD line, and complete the future extension to Malvern Town Centre with LRT which allow integration into the whole Transit City plan. Or if that's cost prohibitive, then replace the whole line with LRT and integrate it into Transit City. This would allow more seamless connections and less transfers within Scarborough. And integration would allow the TTC to buy a common fleet, that minimizing maintenance costs and the number of yards and depots.

There is also the matter of selling all this to residents in Scarborough. Since Scarborough doesn't have a subway line and the city prioritized the Sheppard subway over the RT replacement....subways have become a touchy local political issue. Though the TTC doesnt have the funds for subway construction in Scarborough, its hoping to compromise by offering light rail instead. And in my estimation this is a good compromise. The reality is that there are a number of other corridors where heavy rail would be much more effective and resource efficient...downtown, eglinton, yonge (upto and past Steeles), west to Square One....

 

[Brandon716]

The Scarborough RT is still a failure at this point, its in dire need of repair at a cost of billions that could have been saved if they would have done it right in the 80's.

Now the problem isn't the province, its David Miller and the entire "lets do LRT" bandwagon they've created.

Not saying he's a bad mayor overall, just think this idea of LRT is rediculous.

Toronto's next TTC investment would be better served as replacing the Scarborough RT with a TTC subway to Scarborough, then continuing the line north and westward to connect with the end of Sheppard at Victoria Park.

At a later date they could look at connecting Kipling with the airport, and long term plans making an east-west subway along Eglinton afterwards.

But to start creating LRT lines all over and adding to the stress in the system is rediculous. Creating a new maintenance team and new series of companies to have to invest into so they can buy new car styles, the new gague type of the rail, and all that is just nonsense.

I mean the new LRT network wouldn't likely even use the old electric pole technology of the old streetcars, it would likely use one of the newer electric technology like these LRT cars in Pittsburgh.

Its just more maintenance and a lot of waste in money for the TTC.

I also don't like excuses. Where there is will, there is a way. Governments all over the world magically find money to waste on new stadiums and unnecessary venues, especially when they fawn over the idea of being an Olympic city. Toronto has bid for the Olympics before.

As much as we all like the image that the Olympics brings for an Olympic year, it doesn't change a city forever and ever. Atlanta had the Olympics in 1996, the city is still crappy, and the world now knows its the home of Coke and for an Olympic bombing. WOO HOO. All that for two lousy weeks of sports in 1996. The amount of money that could be saved from avoiding the security required this day and time combined with a focus on getting federal money could avoid the need for Olympics. Most cities use the Olympics to build their infrastructure anyway, why not just focus entirely on infrastructure in Toronto and get some things right?

Toronto is growing like crazy, its one of the world's multi-cultural immigration centers. It doesn't need the lower capacity of an LRT system, it needs the real deal.

Toronto should get its priorities right, and LRT isn't the right priority, and if they are willing to do an Olympic bid and waste the money associated with that, they should invest in expanding subways.

David Miller needs to change his priorities, buddy up with Dalton McGuinty, create a unified coalition across Ontario and go to Ottawa and make the case that Toronto is a world city that represents Canada, and its asinine that the federal government won't help fund one of the economic engines of Canada, not to mention its prime economic engine, to help share the costs to get some work done.

Organizing starts at the roots, and it still works. And it starts with the mayor in part.

Just look at how much the federal government has invested into the Canada Line in Vancouver. I was in Vancouver several times last fall, and when I walked around Granville and saw the project, I was glad the federal government of Canada finally stepped up and got involved and helped a necessary project get off the ground.

Toronto deserves the same kind of help given the situation.

 

[kEiThZ]

Most of the things you suggest are in the official plan. The LRT proposal is simply a way to jump start things and add capacity rapidly.

I would disagree that heavy rail is needed on most of those lines. Toronto is not New York or Montreal. We have nowhere, near the density to make heavy rail viable on the scale you are proposing. I would offer the Sheppard subway as proof of this. Despite all the development along that route, the cost recovery is estimated at 75%, significantly lower than the rest of the system. Indeed, in last year's budget deliberation, they were considering mothballing the line or reducing service (none on weekends, etc.). For the loads along Sheppard and the other Transit City routes, LRT is entirely appropriate imho. When development reaches the point where LRT has insufficient capacity then perhaps subways would be more approrpiate. This argument is all the more poignant given the both the lower costs of building LRT (1/5 of Toronto's subway costs) and lower maintenance costs. This is a big concern for a system that relies so much on the fare box (amost 80% or revenue). Indeed, if planned right, the Transit City proposal could well result in the largest expansion in TTC history by creating constant momentum in network development (interestingly proposed by the conservative mayoral candidate Jane Pitfield).

As for campaigning for funds, you obviously aren't aware of the dynamics of Toronto politics....there aren't any....see my other thread. Torontonians loyally vote Liberal in every election, in every riding. This means that when the Liberals are in office, they ignore us cause we are safe ridings. And the Conservatives are weary of investing in the city and getting nothing in return....hence our proposed rail line in from Peterborough...running through a bunch of 905 Conservatives ridings...... Sheep get sheared and slaughtered....that's how the world works.

 

[Brandon716]

I understand the dynamic of politics in Toronto, and I understand that nothing is being done right now, hence why I suggested change.

 

[kEiThZ]

I understand the dynamic of politics in Toronto, and I understand that nothing is being done right now, hence why I suggested change.

I would suggest that change is difficult without people actually putting thought into their votes. Look at some of the rabid anti-conservatism on this site alone....and the Harper Conservatives are still more liberal than the US Democrats! With attitudes like that, I would suggest that Toronto will never really be able to win any attention. The Maritimes are excellent examples of how to get what you want. They aren't particularly loyal to any party and they expect the party they elected to deliver. Ditto for Quebec.