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The No-State Solution

I'm not all that sure Palestine would be able to prosper on its own without support from Israel and other Arab countries, especially as it is carved up in two, and especially of some of its best land is on the wrong side of the Israeli wall.

I wonder if a one-state solution could work, with high autonomy between Jewish and Arab populations, like Belgium. However, that won't happen under current circumstances.

The problem also lies with Arab countries who really don't give a shit about Palestine, and end up using it to boost their own agenda. The Palestinians are screwed on all sides, and I wonder if Israel gives it what it wants, what Palestine will end up doing - fighting amongst themselves, perhaps, like so many post-independance eras (like Ireland or some African and Asian countries), or continuing to fight Israel, or even other Muslim countries.
 
The most dangerous thing of all in this whole conflict is this belief that no solution is possible. Israel and the Palestinians were so unbelievably close to a solution at Camp David and Taba, and the Arabs and Israelis have shown a willingness to stick to peace agreements once they're signed (i.e. the first Camp David accords).
 
The most dangerous thing of all in this whole conflict is this belief that no solution is possible.

That's exactly what the radicals on both sides would like you to believe, so that they can keep killing each other. The most hopeful era was when Rabin was PM of Israel. He paid a high price for his moderate view that Israel's borders cannot be determined by what is said in the Bible.
 
Israeli air strike killed 54 Lebanese civilians, including 37 children

02.jpg

"Why do they hate us?"
 
Israel told them to leave, so it's their own fault for getting killed. And the US also condones it.

Lebanon airstrike kills 57
Rice postpones trip to Beirut
Jul. 30, 2006. 09:39 AM

QANA, Lebanon (AP) — An Israeli airstrike flattened a three-storey building in southern Lebanon on Sunday, killing at least 57 people, 34 of them children.

Lebanese security officials said the toll rose dramatically after an initial report of 50 dead after 18 people from two families were found in a single room of the building.

The Lebanese Red Cross said the total death count from the 19-day Israeli military campaign is now more than 500.

U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice postponed a visit to Lebanon, a setback for diplomatic efforts to end hostilities.

Infuriated Lebanese officials said they had asked Rice to postpone the visit after the missile strike on the town of Qana.

But Rice said she called Lebanese Prime Minister Fuad Saniora to say she would postpone the trip, and that she had work to do in Jerusalem to end the fighting.

The missiles also destroyed several homes in the village as people were sleeping.

Israeli said it targeted Qana because it was a base for hundreds of rockets launched at Israeli, including 40 that injured five Israelis on Sunday. Israel said it had warned civilians several days before to leave the village.

“One must understand the Hezbollah is using their own civilian population as human shields,†said Israeli Foreign Ministry official Gideon Meir. “The Israeli defence forces dropped leaflets and warned the civilian population to leave the place because the Hezbollah turned it into a war zone.â€


Rescuers aided by villagers dug through the rubble by hand. At least 20 bodies wrapped in white sheets were taken away, including 10 children. A row of houses lay in ruins, and an old woman was carried away on a plastic chair.

Villagers said many of the dead were from four families who had taken refuge on the ground floor of the building, believing they would be safe from bombings.

“We want this to stop!†shouted Mohammed Ismail, a middle-aged man digging away at the rubble in a search for bodies — his brown pants covered in dust.

“May God have mercy on the children,†he said. “They came here to escape the fighting.

“They are hitting children to bring the fighters to their knees.â€

Rice said she was “deeply saddened by the terrible loss of innocent life†in Israel’s attack. But she did not call for an immediate cease-fire in the fighting between Israel and Hezbollah militias.

“We all recognize this kind of warfare is extremely difficult,†Rice said, noting it comes in areas where civilians live. “It unfortunately has awful consequences sometimes.â€


“We want a ceasefire as soon as possible,†she added.

The United States and Israel are pressing for a settlement that addresses enduring issues between Lebanon and Israel and disables Hezbollah — not the quick truce favoured by most world leaders.

Saniora said Lebanon would be open only to an immediate ceasefire.

“There is no place at this sad moment for any discussions other than an immediate and unconditional ceasefire, as well as international investigation of the Israeli massacres in Lebanon now,†he told reporters Sunday.

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said Israel would not rush into a ceasefire until it achieved its goal of decimating Hezbollah, whose July 12 capture of two Israel soldiers provoked the fighting.

More than 5,000 people protested in central Beirut, denouncing Israel and the United States, some chanting, “Destroy Tel Aviv, destroy Tel Aviv.†A few broke car windows and tried briefly to break into the main UN building until political leaders called for a halt to damage.

Lebanese Defence Minister Elias Murr questioned Israel’s claim that Hezbollah fired rockets from the village.

“What do you expect Israel to say?†he told Al-Jazeera television. “Will it say that it killed 40 children and women?â€

Qana, in the hills east of the southern port city of Tyre, has a bloody history. In 1996, Israeli artillery killed more than 100 civilians who had taken refuge at a UN base in the village. That attack sparked an international outcry that helped end an Israeli offensive.

The attack drew swift condemnation from several world leaders.

French President Jacques Chirac’s office said “France condemns this unjustifiable action, which shows more than ever the need to move toward an immediate ceasefire, without which other such dramas can only be repeated.â€

Jordan’s King Abdullah II condemned “the ugly crime perpetrated by Israeli forces in Qana,†calling it “a blatant violation of the law and all international conventions.â€

Fighting also broke out Sunday between guerrillas and Israeli soldiers in a zone called the Taibeh Project area, about three kilometres inside Lebanon.

The Israeli army said one soldier was moderately wounded. Hezbollah’s al-Manar TV claimed two Israeli soldiers were killed.

Heavy artillery also rained down on the villages of Yuhmor and Arnoun, close to Taibeh. In northern Israel, rockets fell on Nahariya, Kiryat Shemona and an area close to Maalot, the army said.

Israel has said it would launch a series of limited ground incursions into Lebanon to push back guerrillas, rather than carry out a full-fledged invasion. Israeli troops pulled back Saturday from the town of Bint Jbail, suggesting the thrust, launched a week ago, had halted.

But Lebanese officials reported a massing of troops and 12 tanks near the Israeli town of Metulla further to the northeast, on the tip of the Galilee Panhandle near the Golan Heights, suggesting another incursion could begin soon.
 
Man im with Israel on this.

They hate Israel. They want to destroy Israel. Israel wants nothing but peace. Offers land in return for security but gets nothing but hatred in return. Oh how the people of Israel dream of peace.

I know most people dont believe this, but Israel is taking it easy on Lebanon. If they wanted to destroy Lebanon they could do that in less than 1 day.

Im surprised myself how much restraint Israel is showing. I'm also surprised that they haven't yet taken the war to Syria.
 
The explosion at Qana that destroyed the building occurred 8 hours after the bombing. There's something we're not being told about what happened there.

My guess is that it was a secondary from the rocket assembly area, but that's just a guess.

Kevin
 
I just heard this as well. If true it raises some interesting questions about what actually killed these very, very unlucky people.

On the other hand, would Israel have apologised as it did if it wasn't 100% sure that its bombs had done the deed? Presumably they know which of their planes was dropping what, when.

If I recall correctly, the last time something really spurious was pinned on the Israelis (Jenin) they denied it vehemently from the start...and they turned out to be telling the truth, much to the chagrin of leader writers at The Guardian and The Independent. That they would say sorry suggests that this was, in fact, an errant bombing.
 
The rightwingdingdongblogosphere (thanks, AZ!) is suggesting Hezbollah may have been behind it. Right now I doubt it, and believe that this is dubious speculation - the mainstream media has not picked it up as of yet (checked Star, Globe, CNN, NY Times, CBC), and Israel did already say it deeply regretted the action, and they're not yet suggesting this. I only heard of it through Antonia Zerbisias.
 
I think if Hezbollah were truly concerned about the welfare of their children they wouldn't be hiding among civilians. As Golda Meir eloquently put it:

"“We will have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate usâ€.
 
On the other hand, would Israel have apologised as it did if it wasn't 100% sure that its bombs had done the deed?

Probably, if it looked at all like they had something to do with it. They've apologised before and had the evidence turn out that they weren't responsible.

Kevin
 
Guerilla fighter and Iron Lady Golda Meir was anything but eloquent.

"There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist."
-- Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969.


"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to."
-- Golda Meir, March 8, 1969.


"This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy."
-- Golda Meir, Le Monde, 15 October 1971




Yitzhak Rabin had a much more thoughtful view of the situation:

"I recognize that there is a Palestinian people, and next to Israel should be a Palestinian entity..."
-- Yitzhak Rabin


"No Arab ruler will consider the peace process seriously so long as he is able to toy with the idea of achieving more by the way of violence."
-- Yitzhak Rabin
 
some interesting context from the Globe

Hezbollah's sham excuse for fighting
MARCUS GEE
718 words
2 August 2006
The Globe and Mail
A15
English
All material copyright Bell Globemedia Publishing Inc. or its licensors. All rights reserved.
If you want to understand what Israel is up against in this fight, consider the quarrel over a tiny patch of land called the Shebaa Farms. No one would claim that the dozen or so overgrown and abandoned farms on the western slopes of Mount Hermon are worth much to anyone. Israel occupied the area when it took the Golan Heights from Syria in the 1967 Arab-Israeli war, and it has been in no man's land ever since. But if you listen to Hezbollah, this territory is at the very heart of its struggle against the Jewish state, a symbol of its ongoing occupation of Arab land and a rich justification for militant resistance.

Seldom has there been a thinner excuse for armed struggle. Israel, as everyone knows, withdrew from southern Lebanon in 2000, ending an 18-year occupation designed solely to protect its northern border. Israel has no possible reason for wanting to hold a single inch of Lebanese soil except when that soil is being used to launch attacks on its citizens. When Israeli forces pulled out six years ago, most Israelis could not have been happier.

But the withdrawal presented Hezbollah with an embarrassing problem. If Israel was no longer occupying Lebanon, what, exactly, was this fierce resistance group resisting? What could justify crossing the border to kill Israeli soldiers or lob missiles at Israeli communities? What reason could it have for maintaining a guerrilla army with an arsenal of 10,000 missiles?

Lacking any real justification for harassing Israel, Hezbollah seized on the Shebaa Farms as a pretext to carry out its attacks, arguing that, as long as Israel held this sliver of land, its withdrawal from Lebanon was incomplete. The claim is absurd on its face. United Nations inspectors surveyed the border after Israel's 2000 pullout and certified that it had fulfilled the demands of Security Council Resolution 425, which called for Israel to withdraw to the internationally recognized boundary.

Hezbollah, supported by the governments of Lebanon and Syria, insists against all evidence that Israel has failed to satisfy that demand. The office of Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora has even claimed that, if Lebanon gets the Farms area, then it will be able to disarm Hezbollah, because the “Israeli occupation of Lebanese lands in the Shebaa Farms region is what contributes to the presence of Hezbollah weapons.â€

This is fantasy on a scale that would put Lewis Carroll to shame. Does anyone really believe that Hezbollah will lay down its arms and turn into a harmless Koran-reading society if Israel turns over a few weedy farms to Lebanon? It's far more likely that Hezbollah would cheer the handover as yet another triumph for the “resistance†and step up its attacks on Israel. That's what happened when Israel pulled out in 2000. Emboldened, Hezbollah stocked up on missiles and guns from Syria and Iran and began launching sporadic attacks on Israeli targets — culminating in the deadly cross-border raid three weeks ago that set off the current fighting. Israel also found itself under attack from the equally emboldened Palestinians, who launched their bloody second intifada just after the Lebanon pullout.

The lesson is clear: It's not “all about the occupation†after all. Hezbollah doesn't attack Israel because it occupies a scrap of alleged Lebanese land. It attacks because it abhors the very existence of Israel, a state that its leaders and their Iranian sponsors have pledged to eradicate. No territorial concession by Israel will extinguish the burning hatred that propels fanatics such as these.

The Israelis have completed two major withdrawals in the past six years, from Lebanon in 2000 and from the Gaza Strip in 2005. They now find themselves under attack from each. When they occupy, they are attacked. When they pull out, they are attacked. And when they hit back, as any nation would, they are labelled heartless brutes.

Made-up grievances such as Israel's occupation of the Shebaa Farms only disguise the real source of the Arab-Israeli dispute: the refusal of the Arab world to accept the presence of a Jewish state in its midst. If it has done nothing else, this conflict has clarified that.

mgee@globeandmail.com
 

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