The need for private mass transit in the GTA

[Platform 27]

Indeed, the 407 situation proves that all the supposed customer-service benefits of private ownership actually aren't caused by the "private" part. They're caused by the "competition" part. They fly out the window once said private entity is operating in an environment where it holds an effective monopoly.

Individual transit lines virtually always represent natural monopolies. It's only when you hit Tokyo-like levels of service density where you can plausibly have real competition between operators for riders making individual purchasing decisions.

Indeed, economic theory tells us that merely having the ability to support two parallel competitors doesn't guarantee customer-experience-driven competitiveness. Oligopolies can still be ugly things: Look at all the talk given these last few days to how Wind's entry might finally shake up the mobile phone marketplace. The state of that industry in Canada today provides a pretty damning indication that three competing firms can still provide a lousy product with artificially high prices.

 

[Disparishun]

We regulate monopolies (and oligopolies, too). There is likely significant opportunity for competition with Toronto's transit system, provided that competitors are properly regulated.

 

[kettal]

Indeed, the 407 situation proves that all the supposed customer-service benefits of private ownership actually aren't caused by the "private" part. They're caused by the "competition" part.

Ever tried to get service from Bell Canada?

 

[SlickFranky]

The fire department hasn't turned a profit in ages...privatize it! Police too!

What is with this obsession with profit? Transit is not meant to be independently profitable, it's meant to provide a public service. Without transit every major city would grind to a halt. It should be tax-payer funded because it benefits all tax-payers...even those who do not use it.

Sure, it could be run more efficiently. In simplest terms, businesses are generally more efficient because they have have an incentive to succeed (profit), and an incentive not to fail (bankruptcy). Government agencies are just lacking those incentives. Maybe all TTC brass' salaries need to be more closely tied to performance and efficiency.

 

[tkip]

Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh,,,,,,

If I hear one more person praise the infallibility of the private sector, I'm going to puke. There are too many examples of them screwing things up.

All we have to do is look at the 407 and the nightmare of what has happened since. The people of Ontario got screwed on that deal. I keep hearing that running a profit on transit unless you get really high density and thus the ridership, is extremely difficult.

I'm not prepared see transit handed over to a private company and see what route gets chopped because it wasn't making enough money.

 

[hkskyline]

It all starts with planning a sustainable city - one that can support reasonably-frequent transit, and allows people to get from A to B in an efficient way. Once that is set, whether the system is public or private doesn't matter so much anymore. The problem now is the public feels it is not being served by public transit. The question then arises whether private transit can adequately serve the public good.

While there are fears that private transit may result in a significant rise in fares and a drop in service, we are already seeing that for publicly-funded transit. Fares are rising while government subsidies come out of your taxes. If the subsidy increases, that amount will somehow have to come out of your taxes. For the loss-making transit routes, it goes back to the planning issue - why was that part of town not built to sustain transit to begin with?

 

[Justin10000]

I have read too many articles, and books on the failures of the private sector in public transport, and the taxpayer having to pay for their mistakes. The private sector WILL make transit efficient, and by efficient, I mean route cuts, eliminations, employee wage, and benefit cuts. It will not benefit any of us.

Public Transit is a social neccessity, not just another means for someone to make a quick buck from.

Keep it public.

 

[andomano]

I think this thread has run it's course. I'm surprised it has lasted this long considering it was posted by a self-admitting troller whom hasn't bothered to defend his argument.

 

[Disparishun]

If I hear one more person praise the infallibility of the private sector, I'm going to puke. There are too many examples of them screwing things up.

No sector is infallible. Not the private sector. Not the public sector. However, we can be sure that, absent accountability, no sector will act in the public interest.

All we have to do is look at the 407 and the nightmare of what has happened since. The people of Ontario got screwed on that deal.

Right. But it is obvious that the issue with the 407 is that it is poorly regulated -- in fact, not regulated at all.

I keep hearing that running a profit on transit unless you get really high density and thus the ridership, is extremely difficult.

No. Running a profit requires receiving more money than you spend. The money can come from ridership, from government subsidy, or some combination thereof.

Hopefully, a private-sector operator that bid and won a contract to provide transit service would require less subsidy than an operator that didn't have as great an incentive to reduce its costs. But it is dreaming in technicolour to think that private-sector operators could somehow run every route at no subsidy at all.

I'm not prepared see transit handed over to a private company and see what route gets chopped because it wasn't making enough money.

Whether or not routes get chopped because they don't make enough money, and whether or not transit routes get handed over to private companies, have nothing to do with one another.

 

[Second_in_pie]

It all starts with planning a sustainable city - one that can support reasonably-frequent transit, and allows people to get from A to B in an efficient way. Once that is set, whether the system is public or private doesn't matter so much anymore. The problem now is the public feels it is not being served by public transit. The question then arises whether private transit can adequately serve the public good.

While there are fears that private transit may result in a significant rise in fares and a drop in service, we are already seeing that for publicly-funded transit. Fares are rising while government subsidies come out of your taxes. If the subsidy increases, that amount will somehow have to come out of your taxes. For the loss-making transit routes, it goes back to the planning issue - why was that part of town not built to sustain transit to begin with?

Welcome to the smart thinking club. Transit just can't run well in the GTA, outside the Yonge corridor and the area south of Bloor. Transit improvements should go hand in hand with a comprehensive plan for transit to creep outwards from the current corridors. But I see development ideas, and I see transit, but I don't see transit that's built to development. More or less, it's all lines on a map with nothing really built around anything else.

The first thing that needs to be done is connect the high density and employment centres. Without real convenient rapid transit to the major employment centres, a LRT or BRT to your front door will do nothing. Again, you need to look at European cities to see how LRT should be built. They already have all the RT infrastructure, and now they're building LRT after it's all in place. Mind you, they're expanding subway and regional rail at the same time too (see: London, Paris, Barcelona, Hong Kong.)

 

[kettal]

^. What a lame attempt at going off topic

 

[Second_in_pie]

^. What a lame attempt at going off topic

Idk, that sounds like a pretty lame attempt at going off topic there yourself
I was just elaborating that it's not really possible for transit in this city to generate a profit at all. It's just not built out properly. We could fix that, but we aren't. I think it's relevant to the discussion, unless you think it's crazy for transit to be more profitable if it services a transit friendly city. I know, hogwash.

 

[kettal]

European cities don't have profitable transit systems...What does "being more like Europe have to do with this topic?

 

[W. K. Lis]

One should read up on the history of the TTC, to see why Toronto got into the public ownership of public transit in the first place (actually, two times). Click on this link over to Transit Toronto for a brief history lesson.

 

[Justin10000]

^^I would highly reconmend John F. Bromley's book "50 years of progressive transit". Great book.