The declining popularity of golf

[Northern Light]

I wish the big ones in Etobicoke would sell too.

We talked about the City courses in the other thread..........so I'll leave those alone; I have to say, I'm surprised Islington hasn't sold.

A lot of it is not in the floodplain as it stands. If they sold what was not in the flood plain, or within 10M of stable top of bank, there'd be some tidy $$$ to be had.

While, the residual could become TRCA parkland, be restored, and provide about 1km of new bike path as well.

The Toronto Golf Club (actually in Mississauga.....but right at the border is in a similar situation:

St. George's is also most table land

And a surprising amount of Weston Golf is developable at first blush:

Markland and Lambton are both majority floodplain and have less incentive to exit, accordingly.

 

[marcus_a_j]

Some of those roads around Islington and TGC are just screaming to be extended. St. George's would be a challenge to integrate into the surrounding neighbourhood with limited public frontages (from what I can see on the image above).

 

[Towered]

We talked about the City courses in the other thread..........so I'll leave those alone; I have to say, I'm surprised Islington hasn't sold.

A lot of it is not in the floodplain as it stands. If they sold what was not in the flood plain, or within 10M of stable top of bank, there'd be some tidy $$$ to be had.

While, the residual could become TRCA parkland, be restored, and provide about 1km of new bike path as well.

View attachment 283494

The Toronto Golf Club (actually in Mississauga.....but right at the border is in a similar situation:

View attachment 283497

St. George's is also most table land

View attachment 283498

And a surprising amount of Weston Golf is developable at first blush:

View attachment 283499

Markland and Lambton are both majority floodplain and have less incentive to exit, accordingly.

I do believe the upper third of St. George's was sold off in the early 80's (which is when that subdivision was built), so there is a precedent.

 

[Admiral Beez]

During this past summer of Covid golf has been more popular than in decades.

 

[Johnny Au]

During this past summer of Covid golf has been more popular than in decades.

The popularity of golf on television skyrocketed this year, while the popularity of televised traditional team sports declined.

I may be progressive, but many longtime fans of traditional team sports tend to be older and more conservative and do not like the politicization of traditional team sports with BLM, while Gen Y, Millennials (yes, I do separate Gen Y from Millenials with Gen Y being born in the 1980s and Millennials being born in the 1990s), and Gen Z are becoming more interested in e-sports than in traditional team sports. Golf tends to be apolitical (though subtly favouring conservatives). However, there are many other factors explaining the rise in golf's popularity and the decline in popularity of traditional team sports.

 

[jayme2016]

The popularity of golf on television skyrocketed this year, while the popularity of televised traditional team sports declined.

I may be progressive, but many longtime fans of traditional team sports tend to be older and more conservative and do not like the politicization of traditional team sports with BLM, while Gen Y, Millennials (yes, I do separate Gen Y from Millenials with Gen Y being born in the 1980s and Millennials being born in the 1990s), and Gen Z are becoming more interested in e-sports than in traditional team sports. Golf tends to be apolitical (though subtly favouring conservatives). However, there are many other factors explaining the rise in golf's popularity and the decline in popularity of traditional team sports.

I just hope golf courses don't say hey we can raise our green fees and membership big time.

 

[Northern Light]

Looks like Beacon Hill members may turn down a near 1M per member pay day and continue to play.

Beacon Hall Golf Club members vote on developer’s $250-million offer to buy course

The club’s 260 members, a crowd that draws heavily from Bay Street’s financial set, voted this week on the offer from real estate developer Treasure Hill Homes to purchase the 200-acre property

www.theglobeandmail.com

 

[Johnny Au]

Completely disagree, other than a rise in e-sports; Millennials and Gen Z, are very much into basketball and soccer. Growing up in Toronto, it used to be hard to find a pick up game of basketball or soccer. Now I have the opposite problem, you have to wait to find a spot to play pickup in the city.

Also, basketball and soccer fans are very much not conservative, and are very supportive of BLM. It's mainly the team sports with predominately American fans that tend to be more older and conservative (baseball, football etc).

I meant among the older and more conservative crowd.

There is no doubt basketball and soccer is rising in popularity among the younger and more progressive crowd. E-sports is also rising in popularity among the younger crowd (regardless of political ideology).

 

[lenaitch]

Without a doubt the sport with the most privileged members. Maybe only equestrian surpasses it.

Meh. They're shareholders. The members apparently don't need the money and would rather continue playing. It sounds like there may be new memberships opening up if the newer members would bought in solely as an investment may decided to bail.

 

[lenaitch]

Wasn't saying they should be forced to sell, just pointing out the wealth necessary to fund access to playing golf makes it pretty inaccessible.

For a course like that, for sure. I don't know what the rates are around the GTA but in Simcoe County you can do 18 for in range of $60 and some memberships for around $1500/yr. At $60/round, you can't get onto a ski hill for that.

 

[Northern Light]

Well, the Beacon Hill Saga isn't over yet.

Another offer has been made.

An extra 10M on the table for an even 1M per member.

Toronto-based developer makes new offer for Beacon Hall Golf Club

The flurry of activity at Beacon Hall reflects a residential real estate boom that sees frequent bidding wars among home buyers, and a Toronto market that saw the average price on a detached house soar 23 per cent over the past 12 months, to $1,371,791

www.theglobeandmail.com

Interestingly from the article, the membership actually voted 63% in favour of the sale last time. But their constitution requires 2/3 of members to approve a sale, which left them 8 votes short.

From the article:

In a letter of intent, rather than a binding contract, Harlo offered to pay $110-million down. It then asked Beacon Hall members to accept a note for a $150-million mortgage that would initially pay 1.5-per-cent interest, and rise over time to 3 per cent. Harlo is pitching members on collecting interest payments that could potentially cover the cost of their annual golf fees. They could continue to play for the three to five years it is expected to take the developer to obtain the necessary permits.

 

[christiesplits]

I think there should be at least one public golf course in Toronto. In middle school, we attended Detonia Park to golf for a phys-ed class. I reckon 90% of my classmates had never golfed before and wouldn't have another opportunity.

Hamilton has some gorgeous public golf courses, such as Chedoke:

Source

 

[Northern Light]

I think there should be at least one public golf course in Toronto. In middle school, we attended Detonia Park to golf for a phys-ed class. I reckon 90% of my classmates had never golfed before and wouldn't have another opportunity.

Hamilton has some gorgeous public golf courses, such as Chedoke:

View attachment 310428
Source

Golf can survive in public course form, I think, if

a) You can design the courses in such a way that they don't interrupt valley-based bike/pedestrian paths, and retain a wild area connecting 2 or more valley spaces. This, to be clear is perfectly possible.

b) You can design the course to be more space-efficient such that you get higher throughput; while this wouldn't be the exact same experience as some luxury private course, it has the benefit of being cheaper per person to operate, which would allow more affordable pricing and improve accessibility across income levels.

Pitch n' Putt would be one way to achieve this; though its plausible to fully retain the technical aspects of golf while still meeting the above objectives.

Pitch and putt - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[DSC]

Golf can survive in public course form, I think, if

a) You can design the courses in such a way that they don't interrupt valley-based bike/pedestrian paths, and retain a wild area connecting 2 or more valley spaces. This, to be clear is perfectly possible.

b) You can design the course to be more space-efficient such that you get higher throughput; while this wouldn't be the exact same experience as some luxury private course, it has the benefit of being cheaper per person to operate, which would allow more affordable pricing and improve accessibility across income levels.

Pitch n' Putt would be one way to achieve this; though its plausible to fully retain the technical aspects of golf while still meeting the above objectives.

Pitch and putt - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Yes, the problem with many (all?) of the current City golf courses is that they block routes for both pedestrians and cyclists. I do not know their layouts well enough to comment but it is surely possible to create pedestrian/cycling 'corridors.

 

[Northern Light]

Yet another offer for Beacon Hill....

Developers raise the stakes again in bidding for Beacon Hall Golf Club

The rising value of offers for Beacon Hall, and its members’ decisions to turn down previous overtures, have illustrated the tension between soaring prices for single-family homes around Toronto and the popularity of golf

www.theglobeandmail.com

From said article:

"For the fourth time in three years, real estate developers are attempting to snap up top-rated Beacon Hall Golf Club by offering members $1-million each for the Toronto-area property."

Argo/Paradise are the bidders.

****

Then there's this comment..........from the Mayor of Aurora, making me wonder if should dissolve the town:

"In the face of previous offers for the club, Aurora Mayor Tom Mrakas has said the sale of Beacon Hall “would be a tremendous loss” for the community. A portion of the course runs through the Oak Ridges Moraine, a protected area. Mr. Mrakas said while the town has no authority over the sale, it will ensure any new owners conform to the town’s planning guidelines, which cap development at two homes per acre"

Gah! This course fronts Yonge Street! Two Homes an acre!