TCHC fire sale?

[Eug]

Having neighborhoods of nothing but poor people is a problem, but so is having areas with only rich folk. There are a lot of TCHC buildings scattered in the Annex. Houses, but subdivided into apartments, or with a dozen or so people living communally. A lot of the people living in them are artist and activist types.

If the houses were sold, they'd most likely be converted into single family homes for lawyers or Bay streeters. As has happened to many of the other big houses in the Annex. In the long run this would make the Annex a much drabber place, more like Forrest Hill than the vibrant neighbourhood it is now. TCHC buildings in Cabbagetown and the Beaches create a bulwark against a rich people monoculture in those areas as well.

That's baloney of course. TCHC buildings are fine but it's rather amusing you'd actually have the gall to suggest that they are the catalyst that makes or breaks the neighbourhood.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Having neighborhoods of nothing but poor people is a problem, but so is having areas with only rich folk. TCHC buildings in Cabbagetown and the Beaches create a bulwark against a rich people monoculture in those areas as well.

What's all this talk about "rich people". Do you think the average home owner in Cabbagetown is rich? I make less than six figures, drive an 11 year old car, send my kids to public school and buy all my groceries at No Frills. I'm not crying poor by any standards, but I hardly consider myself, nor my neighbours to be "rich people". I am proudly middle class, as is my entire block, made up of school teachers, hair dressers, profs, business owners, some lawyers (they're not all rich) and a few doctors.

Rosedale is rich. Cabbagetowners are middle class.

 

[GraphicMatt]

By any reasonable statistical standard, you're rich. Sorry.

 

[Admiral Beez]

By any reasonable statistical standard, you're rich. Sorry.

Show me your reasonable statistical standard. If I'm rich, what are the folks in Rosedale like the Westons, McCains, Rogers, etc. with multi-million dollar homes, mega-million dollar incomes, that have new Mercedes and Bentleys and send their kids to private schools called? Super Rich? Super Duper Rich? Perhaps your "reasonable statistical standard" has the following scale: super poor, some poor, poor, rich, richer, super rich? Is there a middle class in your scale at all?

I define Toronto and GTA middle class (as opposed to those outside the region, where a little money goes further) as someone who has the income to buy and maintain a reasonable house in the city, own an okay car, eat out a few times a month, saved for their pension, and have enough left over for a moderate vacation once or twice a year. That describes most of my Cabbagetown neighbours.

 

[cdr108]

By any reasonable statistical standard, you're rich. Sorry.

middle to upper-middle class ...
the combined income of 2 unionized workers could afford to live there.

 

[AKS]

I define Toronto and GTA middle class (as opposed to those outside the region, where a little money goes further) as someone who has the income to buy and maintain a reasonable house in the city, own an okay car, eat out a few times a month, saved for their pension, and have enough left over for a moderate vacation once or twice a year. That describes most of my Cabbagetown neighbours.

Depends on your income. Average pay is 40k. If you're above 40k, you're above middle class.

 

[Eug]

According to The Globe, "middle class" can be estimated as someone that makes 75% to 150% of average income. As of a few years ago, that would mean a household income of less than $70000 per year. Let's extrapolate, and say it's $75000 now.

Mind you, I personally consider any individual in Toronto making less than 6 figures middle class, so someone making $100000 is "lower upper class".

Ironically, even with my more harder-to-achieve definition of "upper class", that means several TTC ticket collectors fall into the "upper class" category.

 

[SimonP]

That's baloney of course. TCHC buildings are fine but it's rather amusing you'd actually have the gall to suggest that they are the catalyst that makes or breaks the neighbourhood.

Imagine if Rosedale had a few hundred units of TCHC housing. It would be a very different place. Even a few hundred such residents would necessitate better transit, more social services, and shops geared to lower income consumers. It would also add an activist base pushing for all of these things.

These new services would in turn make the neighbourhood more appealing to middle class residents. Once you have a library branch, good bus service, and an affordable grocery store, the neighbourhood becomes much more appealing to middle class residents. Rather than building a $2 million home on every large lot, developers might sometimes start to put in four $600,000 townhouses.

TCHC buildings are certainly not the only reason that the Annex and Cabbagetown are vibrant urban places, but they certainly help push the neighbourhoods in that direction. I know in my own neighbourhood of the Beaches, the increase in house prices has been killing off some of the vibrancy.

 

[nfitz]

According to The Globe, "middle class" can be estimated as someone that makes 75% to 150% of average income. As of a few years ago, that would mean a household income of less than $70000 per year. Let's extrapolate, and say it's $75000 now.

According to CBC three years ago, average household income in Toronto was $75,000 in 2006. So with inflation, perhaps $80,000 now? Using the Globe's 75% to 150%, middle-class then would be about $65,000 to $120,000.

So Mr. Beez isn't rich ... unless his significant other is pulling in a similar amount ... in which case, he would be upper class.

 

[Eug]

TCHC buildings are certainly not the only reason that the Annex and Cabbagetown are vibrant urban places, but they certainly help push the neighbourhoods in that direction. I know in my own neighbourhood of the Beaches, the increase in house prices has been killing off some of the vibrancy.

Well, I personally consider The Beach a lot more interesting in 2011 than it was in the 90s, albeit somewhat overcrowded for my tastes. I'd rather live near Fallingbrook just outside the Beach, in Scarborough… which by your assessment probably makes me a snob I guess.

According to CBC three years ago, average household income in Toronto was $75,000 in 2006. So with inflation, perhaps $80,000 now? Using the Globe's 75% to 150%, middle-class then would be about $65,000 to $120,000.

So Mr. Beez isn't rich ... unless his significant other is pulling in a similar amount ... in which case, he would be upper class.

That certainly fits in with my feeling of what middle class is in Toronto, esp. since I know lots of non-management types - unionized and non-unionized employees - that make well over $60000 a year. Hell, even secretaries in some places make well over $40000 a year, and dental hygienists often can make 50% more than that. Most people wouldn't exactly consider a dental hygienist rich.

$40000-$60000 just isn't a huge amount of money these days, especially in Toronto, and indeed, $60000 comes in below that middle class low end you calculated.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

Imagine if Rosedale had a few hundred units of TCHC housing. It would be a very different place. Even a few hundred such residents would necessitate better transit, more social services, and shops geared to lower income consumers. It would also add an activist base pushing for all of these things.

These new services would in turn make the neighbourhood more appealing to middle class residents. Once you have a library branch, good bus service, and an affordable grocery store, the neighbourhood becomes much more appealing to middle class residents. Rather than building a $2 million home on every large lot, developers might sometimes start to put in four $600,000 townhouses.

TCHC buildings are certainly not the only reason that the Annex and Cabbagetown are vibrant urban places, but they certainly help push the neighbourhoods in that direction. I know in my own neighbourhood of the Beaches, the increase in house prices has been killing off some of the vibrancy.

http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&sour...3.678984,-79.381199&spn=0.01527,0.043774&z=15

I don't know where exactly you think of, when you think of Rosedale, but the Rosedale I know has apartments on Castle Frank and the ravine, a subway stop on either side, and the retail strips of Yonge Street. It has a number of its large houses carved up into apartments. It also has a perfectly decent public school. Having said all that, it also has a large number of ginormous houses and verdant streetscapes. Dropping an apartment tower, TCHC or no, into Rosedale wouldn't make it a better, 'more vibrant' place, because the whole point of Rosedale is to be an oasis in the city. That's how it was built, way back when they first threw a bridge across the ravine.

As for the Beaches being 'less vibrant', what exactly do you mean by that? It's got more shops, restaurants, tourists in the summer, streetcars in the winter, parades, dog walkers, etc., etc., etc. than any ten other neigbourhoods in Toronto, increases in housing prices or no. IMHO, you're trying to come up with an excuse to keep single family homes for poor families, because you like that idea philosophically ('not just rich people should get to live in houses.') If the city is going to be in the business of housing people, the least we can do is do it efficiently and well. And that implies higher densities.

In a city where the private sector and City has imbraced higher densities for non-TCHC residents, the least we can do is follow that philosophy with the TCHC residents as well.

 

[SimonP]

http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&sour...3.678984,-79.381199&spn=0.01527,0.043774&z=15

I don't know where exactly you think of, when you think of Rosedale, but the Rosedale I know has apartments on Castle Frank and the ravine, a subway stop on either side, and the retail strips of Yonge Street. It has a number of its large houses carved up into apartments. It also has a perfectly decent public school. Having said all that, it also has a large number of ginormous houses and verdant streetscapes. Dropping an apartment tower, TCHC or no, into Rosedale wouldn't make it a better, 'more vibrant' place, because the whole point of Rosedale is to be an oasis in the city. That's how it was built, way back when they first threw a bridge across the ravine.

No need for an apartment tower, but a cluster of townhouses, or a low rise building similar to the ones that already exist, would integrate fine into the community. I'm not saying that Rosedale needs to be changed, it's fine having a few neighbourhoods like that in the city. The danger is that a large slice of the urban core is getting Rosedalized. Davisville, Leaside, Bracondale, the Annex, the Beaches, and Cabbagetown all are at risk of becoming sole preserves for the very wealthy. Mixed income communities are always the most vibrant and most successful. City policies should be geared towards preserving this. Keeping TCHC buildings even in wealthy areas is one important part of this.

As for the Beaches being 'less vibrant', what exactly do you mean by that?

The retail strip is in trouble. On both the western and eastern edges it's being abandoned. The new spaces on the racetrack are all almost completely empty. In my area by Victoria Park, several former store fronts have been converted to residential. The nature of the shops are changing too. They are moving from places that catered to local residents to ones that cater to tourists who come for the summer. We don't get new neighbourhood restaurants, instead we get more wing places.

The biggest problem is the fall in population. 20 years ago many of the large houses were divided into apartments. Each might have had a dozen people. Over time these have been converted into single family homes with 2 to 4 people. (Most of the TCHC buildings are similarly divided into multiple units, and when sold will further reduce the population).

Changing income also leads to changing spending patterns. People who live in small rental apartments have far less total spending money, but they spend that money locally. They don't have cars, so they are forced to shop on the Queen St strip. They get groceries from Cirones rather than drive up to the big Loblaws. They eat dinner at the Goof rather than Bymark. For entertainment they go to the Fox cinema rather than the Four Seasons Centre. Evicting a janitor who lives in a TCHC building in favour of a lawyer will further swing this balance.

 

[js97]

All these 'feel good' talking points, but they severely lack the current financial reality.

The SFH that are not well kept, if they can't be kept in good condition with a Mayor like Miller, than it's obvious that it can't be done.

There is an opportunity to recoup much needed revenue so the REST of the stock can be renovated. Public housing is supposed to be provide adequate housing solutions until an individual is able to get on their own two feet and fend for themselves, not a lifelong subsidized rent pad. Sunset clauses and limitations on the amount of children need to be set (yes it's heartless, but if you can't support yourself, you should not be bringing children to this world)


FYI, there are very few 'bay street' types in cabbage town. As someone that grew up and went to school with people in the area, they are a mix of writers, professors, teachers, doctors, professionals, etc (all would be considered 'middle-class' canadians in the 90's). The realestate market is the culprit that created the idea of 'glitz and Glam' of cabbage town.

 

[TrickyRicky]

Tangent to the thread but sorry guys I would have to agree with GraphicMatt. If you make the average $45,000 per year you are middle-class. Contrary to Eug's suggestion I suspect the average household income in Toronto shrank not grew. It is likely below $70,000 per year now.

Financial status and income are like sex, everyone lies about it and the truth is far more modest than the reality.

 

[Admiral Beez]

If you make the average $45,000 per year you are middle-class..

There's no way that the average income in the old City of Toronto is $45K. I would suggest that the middle or average income in Toronto is more like $75K. Of course even the lowest income in Toronto or Canada would appear to the rich to some of the poorest places in the world.