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Streetcar Tracks on Adelaide

2024-06-18 13:07 Richmond & York St
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drum118 said:
Don't be surprise that once Queen is back in service that the southbound track and 2 way traffic will disappear like it did in 2013.

I agree with those switches and taking the southbound tracks to King would improve TTC ability to to short turn or reroute due to an issue between York and Church on King St.

Will TTC have this detour route open by the time when King is Close at Spadina for the TIFF? It will take the pressure off Queen to have the 504 use Adelaide St for eastbound and could use Wellington to York to reduce some pressure on Richmond, but will still have it on Queen from York to Spadina though.

Now, did the the Richmond intersection open at 6am as plan?
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I think Richmond is still closed. This from City, extended 24 hours

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DSC said:
I think Richmond is still closed. This from City, extended 24 hours

View attachment 573622
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looking at the photos last night that were said paving will be taking place today for the intersection and will not open as plan. Wouldn't be surprise if concrete was being pour for the section north of Richmond along with any other work not seen in the photos.

The main goal is getting all of York St done up to Queen so it can become a 2 way street with access to the underground parking for the Four Season as well reopen the full intersection of Richmond. The Queen switch work is now suppose to be done near the end of July.

Looks like TTC not doing night work to have trackwork ready for concrete pouring the next day like they used to do and not surprised by your last comment for the opening of the intersection today.
 
The photos shows concrete still to be pour south of Richmond for the road. I expect it will be pour when thy pour the track base south of Queen. Was expecting it would open today once paving was done, not per the notice.

Next step to get the track and road in place for the Four Season parking entrance/exit.
 
DSC said:
It seems unfortunate that the TTC did not install a west to south curve from Richmond to York during this work - for diversions or short turns. The addition of southbound track on the short block of York from Adelaide to King would also give flexibility and I suppose this MIGHT be added when the track on King is rebuilt in 2026(?)
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I'll start by saying I agree with the general principal that the TTC should be adding curves when opportunities arise, more curves generally provide more options, especially in an unforeseen detour. However, after looking into the trackage in this area I'm not surprised this particular curve didn't get built for the following reasons:
  1. The westbound diversion of the 504 between Church and King is already possible, and I'd argue, better along Wellington than Richmond as it's closer to the route on King.
  2. I don't believe there's been a commitment to actually add in those tracks south from Adelaide. Without them the curve doesn't add anything aside from providing an alternative route for the on-street loop in the event of a blockage on Victoria.
  3. The curve does open up a 501 diversion from the East if York isn't available to turn back, provided the tracks to King are built with the added curve. However, a better curve to build to enable this is a South to West curve at Church & King since that would mean fewer turns. EDIT: As noted below, this curve already exists.
  4. The fact is, curves are expensive and Metrolinx is only paying to add what they need to operate the diversion. Additional special work at Adelaide and York probably wasn't that costly, but given this intersection only needed tangent rail, a special work addition was likely a larger increase for the TTC to swallow.
 
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max said:
I'll start by saying I agree with the general principal that the TTC should be adding curves when opportunities arise, more curves generally provide more options, especially in an unforeseen detour. However, after looking into the trackage in this area I'm not surprised this particular curve didn't get built for the following reasons:
  1. The westbound diversion of the 504 between Church and King is already possible, and I'd argue, better along Wellington than Richmond as it's closer to the route on King. There is a west to north curve from King to York now. Ideally there would be east to north too and (in an ideal world) south to west.
  2. I don't believe there's been a commitment to actually add in those tracks south from Adelaide. Without them the curve doesn't add anything aside from providing an alternative route for the on-street loop in the event of a blockage on Victoria. Yes, of course, if there is no southbound track on York from Adelaide to King then there is no need for (or possibility of) curves. The TTC say they 'may' build it when King is redone in 2026(?)
  3. The curve does open up a 501 diversion from the East if York isn't available to turn back, provided the tracks to King are built with the added curve. However, a better curve to build to enable this is a South to West curve at Church & King since that would mean fewer turns. There is one now.
  4. The fact is, curves are expensive and Metrolinx is only paying to add what they need to operate the diversion. Additional special work at Adelaide and York probably wasn't that costly, but given this intersection only needed tangent rail, a special work addition was likely a larger increase for the TTC to swallow. Of course cost is a factor but the TTC NEVER thinks ahead or, if they do, forgeta bout it. A few years ago they looked at several new curves and selected 3 or 4 as desirable when next doing those intersectioins. They 'forgot' about both - Church/Carleton and Broadview/Dundas when they had the chance.
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Here is King & York

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1. There is a west to north curve from King to York now. Ideally there would be east to north too and (in an ideal world) south to west.
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Not sure what you're trying to say here. The N-W curve is present and can be used to execute the same diversion as W-S at Richmond and S-W at King. I'll grant you that the E-N curve may also be useful and should already exist.
3. There is one now.
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You're correct, I was going by a TTC overhead map I had open that doesn't show this curve.
4. Of course cost is a factor but the TTC NEVER thinks ahead or, if they do, forgeta bout it. A few years ago they looked at several new curves and selected 3 or 4 as desirable when next doing those intersectioins. They 'forgot' about both - Church/Carleton and Broadview/Dundas when they had the chance.
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Whether they arrived at the decision to only install tangent southbound at Richmond due to their neglect to think ahead, forgetfulness, or through careful consideration of the utility isn't something that I think either of us can say for certain. You will get no argument from me that the TTC has frequently dropped the ball on adding useful curves to the streetcar network. However, the main point of my original response is that this particular curve isn't that useful.
 
DSC said:
It seems unfortunate that the TTC did not install a west to south curve from Richmond to York during this work - for diversions or short turns. The addition of southbound track on the short block of York from Adelaide to King would also give flexibility and I suppose this MIGHT be added when the track on King is rebuilt in 2026(?)
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I paid some extra attention today while walking through here and I noticed there appear to be lot of utility access points down that stretch of York, one even right where the south-west curve would be at King. I wonder if it would require a major relocation project to accommodate this.
There might even be a Toronto hydro vault in the way at King and Pearl as I see they have two manholes in the middle west side of the road at that intersection.
 
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Jonny5 said:
I paid some extra attention today while walking through here and I noticed there appear to be lot of utility access points down that stretch of York, one even right where the south-west curve would be at King. I wonder if it would require a major relocation project to accommodate this.
There might even be a Toronto hydro vault in the way at King and Pearl as I see they have two manholes in the middle west side of the road at that intersection.
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Yes, very good points, utility conflicts do conflict!

. There USED to be southbound tracks on York so if there are utility pits they are probably new but .....
 
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