kettal
Banned
Really??
Then why do you always advocate for a subway to Mississauga when a GO train will do the same job in half the time?
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Street Car vs. Bus
- Thread starter 4grand
- Start date
Really??
Then why do you always advocate for a subway to Mississauga when a GO train will do the same job in half the time?
nfitz
Superstar
I'd have thought it's acceleration ... speed doesn't mean anything, if it takes you 5 minutes to achieve it.
kEiThZ
Superstar
Since 1994 it's grown a bit. And that's because everything east of Morningside was literally a green field. That being said it's reaching it's zenith right now. Additional traffic from Markham or Durham is not a concern really. Nobody from Durham is going to use Sheppard. And most drivers from Markham head down the north-south streets to the highway. If they want to travel east-west they are more likely to use Finch or Steeles.
The most potential for densification along Sheppard was west of McCowan. There are plazas, strip malls, commerical spaces that could all be redeveloped into mixed uses. The tragedy of deploying LRT here though is that it won't maximize the development. We aren't going to get what we saw along the Sheppard line. Now I don't expect 40 storey condos at Vic Park and Sheppard. But I think a subway would have really helped spur development significantly more than what we'll see with LRT (I have yet to see a condo brochure advertising LRT close by) and eventually would have paid for itself (like Sheppard).
kEiThZ
Superstar
Acceleration doesn't mean much when your stops are 440m apart. If you remember high school physics, a distance like that does not allow you to accelerate to any significant speed without making the ride really uncomfortable for your passengers.
If that was the metric for Bloor-Danforth we'd have twice as many stops. Try and imagine what that ride would be like, and you'll have some idea of what the Eglinton Crosstown will be (excepting the bit of reprieve in the tunnel).
nfitz
Superstar
I've ridden many a system that accelerates significantly faster than the BD line, without any apparent passenger discomfort. I can assure you that I'm quite familiar with Newtonian physics.
kettal
Banned
You're forgetting that minor stops which are empty will be skipped unless somebody presses the Next Stop button.
kEiThZ
Superstar
Drum,
You have laid out a great case for acquisition costs and life cycle costs. Nobody here is questioning whether LRT is cheaper to run. It is. However, that does not mean it makes sense. If you take total cost of ownership into account, then you have to count all associated capital expenditures, including the cost of building the track (or bus lanes) into account, not just vehicle costs. When you add that in, the 100-250 million saved over 36 years does not overcome the significantly higher initial capital outlays.
And all that assumes that you've deployed LRT appropriately. If it were about really saving money for example, than why not deploy LRT on Finch East instead of Sheppard East? Why not Wilson instead of Jane? If the issue was reducing operating costs, than the logical solution would be to replace the busiest bus routes with the LRTs. Why aren't they doing that? Even by your logic, Transit City still isn't as efficient as it should be.
You have laid out a great case for acquisition costs and life cycle costs. Nobody here is questioning whether LRT is cheaper to run. It is. However, that does not mean it makes sense. If you take total cost of ownership into account, then you have to count all associated capital expenditures, including the cost of building the track (or bus lanes) into account, not just vehicle costs. When you add that in, the 100-250 million saved over 36 years does not overcome the significantly higher initial capital outlays.
And all that assumes that you've deployed LRT appropriately. If it were about really saving money for example, than why not deploy LRT on Finch East instead of Sheppard East? Why not Wilson instead of Jane? If the issue was reducing operating costs, than the logical solution would be to replace the busiest bus routes with the LRTs. Why aren't they doing that? Even by your logic, Transit City still isn't as efficient as it should be.
kEiThZ
Superstar
How many times will that happen on a LRT that could carry up to 300 riders?
unimaginative2
Senior Member
I agree, and countless surveys agree too. Unfortunately far too many LRT advocates (including Mr. Giambrone) are downtown residents who are only travelling very short distances and for whom the walk to the stop is actually a significant percentage of the total trip.
GraphicMatt
Looking forward to a FRESH START for Toronto
I submit to the group that reliability is the truest, most important metric. People like the subway because they know that a train is always coming, and that it will get them where they need to go. You don't need to bother with schedules or run to catch a departing train. Another train is coming and delays are, for the most part, irrelevant.
If TC can achieve this - and I get why there'd be skepticism, given the TTC's track record in some palaces - it'll be a success.
If TC can achieve this - and I get why there'd be skepticism, given the TTC's track record in some palaces - it'll be a success.
drum118
Superstar
Subway and GO go to different places and server different areas.
Not everyone is Going Downtown or to MCC.
Not everyone can afford the fare cost nor it it easy to get to GO station. Pay a TTC, MT and GO fare is expense. Not bad for one person, but a family of 4-5 is not great.
GO only run Peak service one way.
GO does not help to develop the land use along the corridor where Subway can.
Until GO runs duel direction every 20 minutes or less, still not fast as a subway.
unimaginative2
Senior Member
So many light rail advocates seem to argue like Republicans.
A GO line in its present form is obviously not a substitute for a subway. If it came every 10 minutes and was part of the same fare system as local transit and subways, it would be.
kEiThZ
Superstar
It all depends where you live and work in this city. If you are at Don Mills and Sheppard, where there's a bus going down Sheppard every 90s, reliability isn't a concern. And while bunching is annoying, it's actually not that bad on most suburban routes compared to streetcar reliability in the core.
For suburban residents, speed is the number one concern. If it takes you an hour and a half to get from the edges of Scarborough to school or work in the downtown core or even midtown Toronto, even the most decked out tram in the world will do nothing for you if it only saves you 10 minutes. If all the SELRT saves is 10 mins over a bus, it's not going to convince too many people to give up their car. I'll bet money on that.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
Travel times matter the most and everyone knows that. People care about frequency and reliability (and other things) because they affect travel times.
jwill
Active Member
Speed is so important, but a faster service won't attract new riders?