Star: Privacy commissioner to probe TTC cameras

[Tuscani01]

It's not about having anything to hide. It's purely privacy.

And since when has riding a bus with other people ever given you a level of privacy?

 

[Blovertis]

Note once again that we have young Giambrone out on a limb defending the indefensible. A pattern is emerging.

 

[Panzerfaust]

And since when has riding a bus with other people ever given you a level of privacy?

Dammit, I can't believe everyone stares at me when I have sex in the back of the bus! I have my expectation of privacy and they're ignoring that!

Seriously though, when the hell was there ever any privacy on a bus, never mind any reasonable expectation of it?

 

[Urban Shocker]

A study released by the Home Office when I was in England last week pointed out that 80% of CCTV footage is "far from ideal" and that most is being used simply to observe people or to enforce traffic laws. The public assumes these systems are being installed for their safety, and the police and politicians appear more than willing to reinforce these assumptions, but the report admits, "little formal research has been undertaken to establish the impact that CCTV has on the investigation of crime."

 

[The Mississauga Muse]

Besides, the why would the government want to track my movements? Why would they care what colour shirt I'm wearing? Why would they care if I floss twice a day or not?

They don't. At least not government TODAY....

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

for me the issue isn't privacy. for christ sakes, the government knows how many times a day i take a piss.

the real issue is cost & effectiveness. fear is the ultimate sales tactic and it could turn out that the only people who benefit from this are the ones who manufacture and sell the equipment.

 

[The Mississauga Muse]

Yes, I'm sure that Big Brother is interested in monitoring our every move. Now excuse me while I get back to making tinfoil hats.

Some people right here in the GTA are unfortunate enough to have a Big Brother that has no complaints procedure. Really. And Big Brother has no policies and procedures that resemble policies and procedures to any reasonable person.

It's one thing if it's a police service behind the video cameras (like in Toronto, TTC for example). But Mississauga has only security guards.

Last week, after requesting the Mississauga Big Brother 2003 strategic plan back in February I finally got the 15 page document. It was denied me and I had to go through an appeals process with the Ontario Information and Privacy Commission.

Hazel McCallion herself denied me the document saying it was just a draft.

McCallion to me on April 16th:

"you were informed from your Freedom of Information request that the plan is still in draft form and is thus not to be disclosed. In reviewing this matter with staff, I can confirm that the creation of the plan did start in 2003 but it has yet to be completed and finalized. "

The mediator later told me that Ontario Privacy Commission ruled in my favour because the 15 pages didn't qualify as a "plan". A plan has certain characteristics and Mississauga would've lost if it had gone to arbitration.

I used to be like some of you here. Trusting. Making the tin foil hat jokes.

You should see these 15 pages. And then know there's no complaints process and there are over 6,000 incidents a year for City of Mississauga security guards. And then no there is not a single record --ever, going all the way back to 1974 of a single complaint against the security guards.

Either it's all Bogus with a Capital BOH-- or police services all over Canada need to find out how Mississauga security guards (with far less training than police) can manage a perfect record like that. And for decades.

 

[The Mississauga Muse]

I'd rather have the cameras than drivers behind plexiglass.

The cameras, from what I understand, are like store cameras - they are used for evidence in the case of an incident, as I doubt with 1600 buses and 248 streetcars, and 2-3 cameras in each, that someone will be actively watching.

So why should I care that much? Active surveillance, however, is another story.

Depends on the type of camera. The real beauts are Pelco PZT's (Pan Zoom Tilt). They can read stuff right off your Blackberry from across the street.

Again, Toronto is lucky. Far as I know the souls behind those cameras are either Toronto Police Services or TTC Special Constables. Real police with a code of ethics, rigorous recruiting and training programme and a complaints procedure that goes all the way to OCCOPS if necessary.

Security guards? Can be security guards with 40 hours training and $11.00 an hour for private contracted out guards.

40 hours... I can see that maybe being ok back in the Leave it to Beaver 50's. But the complexity of nowadays?

Can't be certain but I think it's just a way to save money. A police officer costs a lot more to train, to equip and as salary than just a guard.

 

[The Mississauga Muse]

Dammit, I can't believe everyone stares at me when I have sex in the back of the bus! I have my expectation of privacy and they're ignoring that!

Seriously though, when the hell was there ever any privacy on a bus, never mind any reasonable expectation of it?

I don't believe this is a privacy issue at all. Buscams have their uses. But I know the Buscam that Mississauga was entertaining was off until it was triggered. Either in an accident or by the driver. And once triggered it'd go back and record 20 seconds PRIOR (yes, prior) to it going on and then 20 seconds after.

40 seconds in total.

Me, if you're gonna have cameras? They should be on all the time. 40 seconds does not tell the entire story.

Enough time to record an assault and an escape off the bus. Not the events that led up to it.

BTW it's fun going to You Tube and watch videos of people actually stealing video surveillance cameras!

 

[The Mississauga Muse]

A study released by the Home Office when I was in England last week pointed out that 80% of CCTV footage is "far from ideal" and that most is being used simply to observe people or to enforce traffic laws. The public assumes these systems are being installed for their safety, and the police and politicians appear more than willing to reinforce these assumptions, but the report admits, "little formal research has been undertaken to establish the impact that CCTV has on the investigation of crime."

Further to what you provided here, Urban. From Canada Press:

"Experts also say the costs of such surveillance systems also tend to far outweigh the potential benefits. Many point to studies of similar projects in Europe that suggest the cameras don't have much of an effect in deterring criminal activity - in one case in Berlin, crime actually increased - and have even led to abuses.

Here's the take-home paragraph, Urban:

"Toronto isn't the only Canadian city grappling with safety of passengers in its public transit system. In June, Montreal police assigned a new 132-officer unit to crack down on street gangs and other criminals in the city's subway system, allowing 67 subway security officers - who did not carry guns or have powers of arrest - to become police officers."

You Toronto guys are LUCKY! So are people who use GO and also people who use York region transit. All have Special Constables.

As you can see from Canada Press, Montreal is reacting to the increased demands/difficulties of today's world by hiring Special Constables as well.

The vast majority of security guards are, in the words of Rosie DiManno:

"Ever run afoul of a private security guard? They're really bouncers in polyester, often failed police applicants and crabby about it."

and the most astute:

"Imperious authority, questionably assumed, afflicts many professions that operate under the rubric of managing and browbeating the public: Mall guards who think they're constables walking a beat, public housing wardens, arena security, concert toughs, as well as the legions of barroom bouncers and nightclub gatekeepers – 33,000 of those in the province, heretofore unlicensed and free from scrutiny in their excesses, a law unto themselves."

My Freedom of Information results reflect what DiManno reports. "free from scrutiny in their excesses, a law unto themselves."

AND municipalities give them power over video surveillance cameras...

 

[The Mississauga Muse]

for me the issue isn't privacy. for christ sakes, the government knows how many times a day i take a piss.

the real issue is cost & effectiveness. fear is the ultimate sales tactic and it could turn out that the only people who benefit from this are the ones who manufacture and sell the equipment.

Dead on. Those interested in video surveillance issues might want to Google the #1 company for security cameras.

PELCO

I'd love to see a real study done on the effectiveness of these cameras. I mean I can think of an easy way right now on how to thwart them.

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