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Star: City Housing for 1,500 Planned

It has nothing to do with punishing anyone. It is about spreading the social issues across the city evenly so that one area doesn't suffer.

One would assume that housing is being set up where there is a greater concentration of people in need.

That seems like a "lets set up a hospital near other hospitals because there seems to be a lot of sick people in the area" type argument. Re-inforcing Parkdale as a social housing and mental case neighbourhood simply because it already is in that situation doesn't provide any means to improve Parkdale to become a neighbourhood of equal opportunities. Simply reacting to social needs without a plan to improve things is similar to the idea that Iraq is won with more powerful weapons, crime is solved by hiring police, etc. It doesn't seem sustainable to continue to continue to pack the socially needy into a few neighbourhoods.

Demanding that these facilities be set up Rosedale or the Beach makes it sound as if this action is punative.

I don't think life in the Beaches or the Rosedale is that punishing at all. Parkdale can be tough though. Oh wait, is social services for the people in need or to keep them away from the good neighbourhoods?
 
Picking out specific neighbourhoods like Rosedale for such facilities just sounds as if the problem of poverty and homelessness is being thrown at them because they live in Rosedale. It just sounds as if the people in need are being used to make some kind of a veiled point.

Spreading social issues across the city might sound like a good idea in theory, but there will always be the problem of the people who need these and other services who will then have to travel far and wide to get access to them. This can be a big problem for many of these individuals. That fact should not be discounted.

I don't think life in the Beaches or the Rosedale is that punishing at all. Parkdale can be tough though. Oh wait, is social services for the people in need or to keep them away from the good neighbourhoods?

The emphasis was on where people live. You don't find a high degree of need for shelters or low cost housing in Rosedale, The Beaches or other such places. One does not encounter a large numbers of people in dire need of such housing in those neighbourhoods. By suggesting that people who live in certain areas of the city must be moved off to other locations to satisfy your ideals of where such housing ought to be may not be doing much to satisfy the needs of those who would use such housing. Your original statement appeared to not include the needs of clients so much as your opinion that they ought to be redistributed to neighbourhoods that may they never visit. So why make them go there?

It has nothing to do with good or bad neighbourhoods. Those are your designations. Is that how you identify neighbourhoods? If not, why make such a reference? Are you suggesting Parkdale is a "bad" neighbourhood because of low income residents?

If it is determined that there is a need for low cost housing in Rosedale for people who live in the immediate area, then such housing should be established.
 
Picking out specific neighbourhoods like Rosedale for such facilities just sounds as if the problem of poverty and homelessness is being thrown at them because they live in Rosedale.

Rosedale is not known for social housing and mental health focused agencies. Parkdale is known for those things. Re-inforcing that image by giving those in need an even greater reason to go there doesn't help. I don't think the Beaches or Rosedale are any more difficult to get to. Where would they be going from and to? Once they are there they probably don't need to go anywhere.

One does not encounter a large numbers of people in dire need of such housing in those neighbourhoods.

What was Jane and Finch before the social housing was built? My guess is it was a green field development. Was there a big need for housing at the corner of Jane and Finch? Of course not. People came there because that is where the housing was.

By suggesting that people who live in certain areas of the city must be moved off to other locations to satisfy your ideals of where such housing ought to be may not be doing much to satisfy the needs of those who would use such housing.

In order to move into social housing they are going to be moving from somewhere else. The housing isn't going to be built on the location that they currently happen to standing.

Your original statement appeared to not include the needs of clients so much as your opinion that they ought to be redistributed to neighbourhoods that may they never visit. So why make them go there?

I outlined why I think that is beneficial earlier in the thread. There is opportunity to be found by mixing with the mainstream. That opportunity can be in the form of kids going to school with people of different races and financial situations which fosters greater understanding between people and improves contacts those fiscally disadvantaged youth have to those who might have links to employment opportunities or simply foster a more optimistic view of their future. The best way to learn is by being immersed in it. If you want to get ahead in business there is an advantage to being surrounded by those who are in the business world and have contacts. If you want to learn French the best way is to be surrounded by people speaking French. The best way to become part of mainstream Canada is to be immersed in mainstream Canada. Also, spreading these issues across the city evenly lets people see a clearer picture of what condition the city is in. If one neighbourhood sees only the negative side their view of the conditions of the city will be skewed negatively, and on the other side if a neighbourhood never sees any of the social problems then there is a problem that there is less incentive to deal with those issues. I see a much greater problem with putting a whole bunch of socially disadvantaged in one place than I see spreading them across the city.

It has nothing to do with good or bad neighbourhoods. Those are your designations. Is that how you identify neighbourhoods? If not, why make such a reference? Are you suggesting Parkdale is a "bad" neighbourhood because of low income residents?

The cost of equal sized housing in an area illustrates the desirability of an area. The free market would either raise home values in Parkdale to the value seen in the Beaches or Rosedale or depreciate the values in the Beaches or Rosedale to the level of Parkdale if both neighbourhoods were equally desirable. People feel more safe in Rosedale or the Beaches than in Parkdale. There are more people barely making ends meet in Parkdale. There are more mental cases walking the street in Parkdale. This makes Parkdale a worse neighbourhood than Rosedale or the Beaches... not because of the average person, not because of the location, but because of the situations the average residents face. Moving more socially disadvantaged people into the area wont help the plight of those already there and wont go as far in helping those they want to serve.
 
Rosedale is not known for social housing and mental health focused agencies. Parkdale is known for those things. Re-inforcing that image by giving those in need an even greater reason to go there doesn't help. I don't think the Beaches or Rosedale are any more difficult to get to. Where would they be going from and to? Once they are there they probably don't need to go anywhere.

No, Rosedale is not known for its social housing. So then why set up such housing there? Would it present any practical benefits to the people who would reside there, or would it just satisfy your resentment towards people who are wealthy?

The housing facilities are being spread over a number of wards and are geared towards a number of groups of people with specific needs. That will neither satisfy your agenda, and in the long run it probably will do nothing to alter existing attitudes towards Parkdale that you yourself appear to be perpetuating.

As to the notion that once people are "there" they probably don't need to go anywhere else, how do you know that? Are you assuming that "they" have no needs, no wants, no requirements to go other places? Maybe you should park your assumptions for a moment and pretend not to know what "they" need or want.

What was Jane and Finch before the social housing was built? My guess is it was a green field development. Was there a big need for housing at the corner of Jane and Finch? Of course not. People came there because that is where the housing was.

If you read the article you will note that there is an effort to integrate the housing into existing neighbourhoods. That is hardly representative of a greenfield development. Facilities consisting of 50 units are nothing like the housing efforts of 40 years ago. By integrating housing into established neighbourhoods, the people who reside in that housing have access to the necessary services of that neighbourhood. They don't have to live in towers in the park, or travel great distances for their needs. Hopefully this plan will see all these new facilities well integrated into existing neighbourhoods.

There is opportunity to be found by mixing with the mainstream. That opportunity can be in the form of kids going to school with people of different races and financial situations which fosters greater understanding between people and improves contacts those fiscally disadvantaged youth have to those who might have links to employment opportunities or simply foster a more optimistic view of their future. The best way to learn is by being immersed in it. If you want to get ahead in business there is an advantage to being surrounded by those who are in the business world and have contacts. If you want to learn French the best way is to be surrounded by people speaking French. The best way to become part of mainstream Canada is to be immersed in mainstream Canada. Also, spreading these issues across the city evenly lets people see a clearer picture of what condition the city is in. If one neighbourhood sees only the negative side their view of the conditions of the city will be skewed negatively, and on the other side if a neighbourhood never sees any of the social problems then there is a problem that there is less incentive to deal with those issues. I see a much greater problem with putting a whole bunch of socially disadvantaged in one place than I see spreading them across the city.

First, the outline presented in the article appears to be an effort to mix these facilities with "mainstream" neighbourhoods. These are not entire communities being built, but smaller facilities being integrated into existing neighbourhoods. They are, in essence, already being mainstreamed!

Second, you contradict yourself by first making a statement about exposure of youth to other cultures and so on, then make reference to being immersed in a linguistic totality to learn a language or to be surrounded by people in business in order to get ahead in business. So you want diversity, but then argued for people being surrounded by groupings of people who are like-minded?

How would you presume to place people to effect your necessary desires for them?

You suggest immersion into mainstream Canada, but then neglect to define "mainstream" Canada. Should it be assumed that you have the final say on what that is?

Third, concerning the spreading of these facilities across the city so as to show problems to other residents, it sounds as if you would like to use people in need as a means of illustration to others. This goes back to my original point that there is a punative attitude being exhibited here: you want to use people as a means of displaying specific problems to those who are fortunate enough not to be suffering. In my opinion, people should not be used like that.
 
No, Rosedale is not known for its social housing. So then why set up such housing there? Would it present any practical benefits to the people who would reside there, or would it just satisfy your resentment towards people who are wealthy?

I don't have any resentment towards people who are wealthy. I would like to move to Rosedale. You seem to have a resentment towards the poor and mentally challenged. You seem to want them to stay where they are in the more troubled neighbourhoods.

As to the notion that once people are "there" they probably don't need to go anywhere else, how do you know that? Are you assuming that "they" have no needs, no wants, no requirements to go other places? Maybe you should park your assumptions for a moment and pretend not to know what "they" need or want.

People who are mentally challenged walking back and forth on the street aimlessly can't possibly have somewhere to go. Many people on social assistance aren't working so what place so far away would they be going? For the people that do have a place to go Rosedale and the Beaches are also close to downtown and anywhere in the city has the TTC with the same fare to anywhere.

If you read the article you will note that there is an effort to integrate the housing into existing neighbourhoods. That is hardly representative of a greenfield development

No the plan it isn't greenfield. My point is that Jane and Finch was greenfield and it was heavily utilized despite the fact that at that specific location there was no need for social housing. The people in that housing came from elsewhere drawn to that location by the housing. Putting housing in Parkdale will draw in more people who need it from elsewhere.

Second, you contradict yourself by first making a statement about exposure of youth to other cultures and so on, then make reference to being immersed in a linguistic totality to learn a language or to be surrounded by people in business in order to get ahead in business. So you want diversity, but then argued for people being surrounded by groupings of people who are like-minded?

It isn't a contradiction. You surround yourself with where you want to steer towards, not surround yourself with where you already are or do not want to go.

You suggest immersion into mainstream Canada, but then neglect to define "mainstream" Canada. Should it be assumed that you have the final say on what that is?

OK. I should have said "successful Canada".

Third, concerning the spreading of these facilities across the city so as to show problems to other residents, it sounds as if you would like to use people in need as a means of illustration to others. This goes back to my original point that there is a punative attitude being exhibited here: you want to use people as a means of displaying specific problems to those who are fortunate enough not to be suffering. In my opinion, people should not be used like that.

What is punative is sweeping it under the rug by hiding it away in one part of the city and keeping it out of other parts of the city. Do you actually believe people on social assistance would find it punative to live in Rosedale? How about we ask the people on social assistance where they would like to live... Parkdale or Rosedale. How about we ask parents who are on social assistance what school they would like their kids to go to.
 
I don't have any resentment towards people who are wealthy. I would like to move to Rosedale. You seem to have a resentment towards the poor and mentally challenged. You seem to want them to stay where they are in the more troubled neighbourhoods.

You would appear to have a bad attitude towards entire neighbourhoods like Pardale by calling it "troubled," or "bad." Otherwise you've skipped over everything else that I have said. Whatever. The plan outlined in the article is what it is whether you like it or not. But if you do see an overwhelming need for social or subsidized housing in Rosedale, go and petition the city. And don't shy away from using words like "bad" and "troubled" when speaking of Parkdale and its residents. I'm sure they would enjoy that characterization.

People who are mentally challenged walking back and forth on the street aimlessly can't possibly have somewhere to go.

So what are you suggesting? Locking them up in a spanking-new facility? What "aims" would you impart upon them to have?

No the plan it isn't greenfield. My point is that Jane and Finch was greenfield and it was heavily utilized despite the fact that at that specific location there was no need for social housing.

This present plan is nothing like Jane and Finch or others like that, so why keep referring to them?

Putting housing in Parkdale will draw in more people who need it from elsewhere.

The housing is not all in Parkdale. Read the article.

OK. I should have said "successful Canada".

Again, what do you mean by this? Because the aims of the plan may not measure up to your subjective notion of successful does not mean this plan is "wrong."

What is punative is sweeping it under the rug by hiding it away in one part of the city and keeping it out of other parts of the city.

The facilities are not going into just one neighbourhood of the city. Reread the article.

Do you actually believe people on social assistance would find it punative to live in Rosedale? How about we ask the people on social assistance where they would like to live... Parkdale or Rosedale. How about we ask parents who are on social assistance what school they would like their kids to go to.

Again, not all facilities are going to be in Parkdale. Try to understand that point. As to whether people would want to live in Rosedale, why not suggest Bridle Path? I'm sure everyone has fantasies about where they want to live, but when situating these facilities it is necessary to place them close to services that would be of most use to people with potentially limited mobility. It isn't the Parkdale versus Rosedale issue that you want it to be.
 
Spreading social housing and services across the city is equality. Allowing facilities to be built in one neighbourhood while having none built in another neighbourhood anchors those with social needs in one neighbourhood and ensures they will never be in the other neighbourhood. How could Parkdale ever revitalize to a point where it is the most desirable neighbourhood in the city when it is home to far more social housing and social needs facilities than another area? How could Rosedale ever degrade to the point where the quality of life in Rosedale is below Parkdale when the moment someone looses their financial situation they would no longer afford Rosedale, be forced to move to a cheaper area like Parkdale, and if that person requires social services then they would end up getting them in Parkdale. I'm not saying that Rosedale "should" become the next Parkdale or Parkdale "should" become the next Rosedale... I'm saying that these facilities inhibit the dynamic changes of the city from occurring.

Putting social housing and mental facilities in one place because that is the location where it is needed anchors the dynamic of the city. It makes it so that it is very likely a neighbourhood will only ever be what it is today.

You would appear to have a bad attitude towards entire neighbourhoods like Pardale by calling it "troubled," or "bad."

I think you have your head in the sand. If being poor isn't a "trouble", being a mental case isn't a "trouble", if street gangs aren't a "trouble" then why bother spending any money at all dealing with it? When all the "troubles" are in certain neighbourhoods but not in other neighbourhoods then I call those neighbourhoods "troubled".

So what are you suggesting?

I'm suggesting that walking around aimlessly is something that can happen anywhere in the city and need not occur only in one part of the city.

This present plan is nothing like Jane and Finch or others like that, so why keep referring to them?

Because the fact that there is people with social housing and services needs in Jane and Finch could justify new social housing in that area just as it is being justified in Parkdale. I'm pointing out that the placement of social housing at Jane and Finch created a neighbourhood where there are an even greater number of people in need of social housing. Using the fact that there are socially needy people in an area to justify further placement of social housing in the exact same area ensures a downward cycle. I wonder why you think there is a Regent Park redevelopment. Why did Toronto housing move some people out of the area and plan on introducing units in the development which are market rate? It sounds to me like they are trying to rectify a neighbourhood social imbalance that went too far. Maybe you should protest the Regent Park redevelopment because it is forcing some people to move and of course the redevelopment doesn't need to occur since there is no such thing as a troubled neighbourhood in your view.

Again, what do you mean by this? Because the aims of the plan may not measure up to your subjective notion of successful does not mean this plan is "wrong."

I don't think my tax dollars should be used for anything other than public improvements and if nobody can define what "success" is or define what is an "improvement" is then that really takes politicians off the hook doesn't it. Perhaps you are right... the goal may not match my goals. Maybe the goal is to increase the number of people on social assistance, to congregate those with social needs in certain parts of the city and to keep them out of other parts, and to decrease property values in some parts of the city while protecting the property values of the affluent in which case this might be a resounding success.

Again, not all facilities are going to be in Parkdale. Try to understand that point. As to whether people would want to live in Rosedale, why not suggest Bridle Path?

When I say Rosedale I don't mean Rosedale specifically... I mean all neighbourhoods, that would include Bride Path. When I say Parkdale I don't mean Parkdale specifically... I mean neighbourhoods which already have their fair share of social housing and support facilities. It isn't going to destroy a neighbourhood like Bridle Path to have one building, designed to fit in with the neighbourhood, with a couple of needy families in it. The space these people would have in that home would be small and not entirely desirable but their kids would be able to go to a nice school with field trips and greater chances that their lives would be different than their parents. As Regent Park shows putting more than a neighbourhood's fair share of social housing and support facilities in one area does destroy a neighbourhood.
 
i don't think that the argument of "putting social housing all in one area is beneficial in the sense that the appropriate services are in that area" is a valid one sometimes. near my area, a community center to service such people is being built a bit distant from where the need is. some community members call it a waste because if you don't have a car, you can't get to it and it requires a few bus transfers. usually people in such a situation should have the option of getting to such a location on foot.

of course, this contradicts the argument "to spread them out" because then the mentioned people would have to commute to such a location. but one must wonder if the social services would be needed to such a degree if people down on their luck were involved in a community where they were around people who were not down on their luck. being in community of mixed income, lifestyles, etc. opens up the possibility of positive networking which can possibly help people pull themselves up on the social ladder.
 
near my area, a community center to service such people is being built a bit distant from where the need is.

Well obviously the secondary support like soup kitchens or community centers need to be built near where the people live. But, when the city builds shelters or public housing they are the ones deciding where they live. If housing is not placed evenly across the city but is instead put next to services, and services are placed next to housing, then it continues a cycle until there are only those in need living in the area.

but one must wonder if the social services would be needed to such a degree if people down on their luck were involved in a community where they were around people who were not down on their luck. being in community of mixed income, lifestyles, etc. opens up the possibility of positive networking which can possibly help people pull themselves up on the social ladder.

My point exactly. If one child in the class can't afford the field trip the rest of the class pitches in to make sure he can go. If all the children in the class can't afford the field trip then it is a lot more likely the field trip isn't even going to happen. If one family in the church needs assistance the rest of the church pitches in to help. If every family in the church needs assistance then there is a serious inability to help out.
 
More public housing in downtown?

While I was visiting Toronto (in preparation for my return from this distant outpost of the Dominion, i.e. Fredericton) last month I read an article in the Toronto Star that more public housing was planned for downtown. If there's already a thread on this topic here, please let me know, as I couldn't find it. I'm not adverse to public housing, as we need to help our fellow man, but I thought there was a by-law on the books stating that you could only have so much public housing per area. Obviously those built before this by-law when the downtown area was relegated to the poor don't apply, but surely putting more housing downtown would be contrary to these rules?
 
I don't know what 'rules' are in the city's current official plan, but large swaths of downtown public housing have been knocked down in recent years. Almost half of Regent Park (north) is gone, and most of Don Mount Court is gone, too. I would hope these units could be replaced with affordable living spaces, but I have my doubts.
I think there was a conscious effort to remove a large proportion of Regent Park's population, since they began the redeveloppment by knocking down a bunch of large, sturdily constructed buildings instead of commencing the redevelopment where the townhouses are, thus displacing a fraction of the numbers who did get the boot.
Co-ops have a few lucky members who won the rent-lottery, as it were, when the buildings first went up, while everyone else pays market rent. I don't know what the status is of the many city-owned subsidized rental units spread around the city- if they are still cheap, or city-owned.
 
Erik T:

I believe there is a minor net loss of RGI units at Regent Park for the property public/market mix, but TCHC is mandated to replace those lost units in new buildings nearby. As to construction phasing and movement of individuals, here is a more detailed breakdown from TCHC:

http://www.regentparkplan.ca/relocation.htm

One would imagine building the townhouses while keeping the existing structures standing in Phase 1 would be such a nightmare logistically speaking.

AoD
 
It will cater to families of African descent who live in that part of the city and are on social assistance.
What does this mean exactly? Is that referring to people from Africa of all ethnic backgrounds, or black people from the Caribbean who's ancestors came from Africa?
 
^ Is there a 'best' location as long as people in every neighbourhood will say the same thing?
Everyone, and everyone neighbourhood should carry their fair share of the public housing burden. Why must only a few wards keep being saddled with more than their share of public housing?
 

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