SmartTrack (Proposed)

[ehlow]

It's not the use of the word possible that I'm picking on. It's your attempt to convince everyone that every 15-minute service is really every 5-minute service.

I'd be extremely shocked if even 50 years from now we see heavy rail travelling between Renforth and Mount Dennis along Eglinton every 15 minutes. And I plan to be around to not see that ... barely.

All I was saying was that both the GO RER & SmartTrack service of 15 minutes is a minimum frequency. Peak hour frequency could be higher.

Is a TTC subway in Toronto a 2-3 minute service or 8 minute service? It's 2-3 minute service during rush hour, 8 minute off peak. I'm saying that the GO RER promise refers to it being a 15 minute frequency during the off peak times. Services usually don't have one constant frequency the whole day. They usually are more frequent during peak hours.

It says it right in the report, it's 15 minute service or more frequent.

 

[WislaHD]

This new SmartTrack PDF file of 24 pages is a big goldmine of information:

We may as well start calling this "GO RER Toronto".

I'm excited.

 

[nfitz]

Is a TTC subway in Toronto a 2-3 minute service or 8 minute service? It's 2-3 minute service during rush hour, 8 minute off peak.

It's far better than 8-minutes off-peak. On both Line 1 and Line 2, off-peak is never scheduled to be worse than every 4.9 minutes. Even Sheppard is every 5.5 minutes. Sure, 8 minutes may happen ... but that's not what is scheduled. For similar reason, if the schedule is every 15 minutes, in reality, one might have to wait 20 minutes for a train, and then 10 minutes for the next one.

It says it right in the report, it's 15 minute service or more frequent.

It might well say it. We will never see every 15-minute scheduled heavy-rail service from Mount Dennis to Renforth.

 

[silvercity]

In the PDF it says the whole SmartTrack project will cost $8bn and the length is 50km+... Is it really going to cost that much for a surface rail line that mostly exists already?

 

[ehlow]

It's far better than 8-minutes off-peak. On both Line 1 and Line 2, off-peak is never scheduled to be worse than every 4.9 minutes. Even Sheppard is every 5.5 minutes. Sure, 8 minutes may happen ... but that's not what is scheduled. For similar reason, if the schedule is every 15 minutes, in reality, one might have to wait 20 minutes for a train, and then 10 minutes for the next one.

The point wasn't really the exact number, it was that off-peak the subway is less frequent than rush hour service. There are varying frequencies throughout the day, and the 15 minute figure for GO RER & ST is referring the minimum service level.

All I did was point out something that's right there in the report, and quoted it. That's all I said nfitz.

It might well say it. We will never see every 15-minute scheduled heavy-rail service from Mount Dennis to Renforth.

Cool. Thanks for the info!

 

[silvercity]

Also, the PDF is still kind of vague about the relationship between GO RER and SmartTrack. My understanding is SmartTrack IS GO RER, plus enhancements within the city of Toronto? The last thing I want to see is another single line in its segregated operation that is different from the GO system or the subway system...

 

[nfitz]

All I did was point out something that's right there in the report, and quoted it. That's all I said nfitz.

That's all you said? Can you point to where in the report is the text "I've been saying this all along. People for some reason seem to assume that ST will run trains exactly every 15 min all day."

That's what I'm reacting to - and not particularly you. People trying to sell this is much more than a 4-train/hour surburban commuter rail project. Someone was talking about indoor stations, and platform doors this week.

 

[ehlow]

That's all you said? Can you point to where in the report is the text "I've been saying this all along. People for some reason seem to assume that ST will run trains exactly every 15 min all day."

That's what I'm reacting to - and not particularly you. People trying to sell this is much more than a 4-train/hour surburban commuter rail project. Someone was talking about indoor stations, and platform doors this week.

Right above where I said that I quoted from the report:

SmartTrack proposes a service frequency of 15 minutes or less

• Service frequency of 15 minutes or better

"or less", "or better". Page 7, page 12 of the linked report.

Anyways nfitz, I don't really have anything more to say on this. Have a good night.

 

[georgevicbell]

In the PDF it says the whole SmartTrack project will cost $8bn and the length is 50km+... Is it really going to cost that much for a surface rail line that mostly exists already?

Most of it doesn't exist...they need to double or triple track large sections of it, buy property for those tracks, move the current tracks, build a couple dozen major bridges, do some major rail crossing grade separations, build more than a dozen new stations, buy land for those stations, electrify it all, electrify lakeshore (to get trains in and out of the maintenance facilities), buy hundreds of EMU's, plus potentially tunnel a huge amount of it (eglington, and downtown), buy a few TBM's, and then upgrade Union station, the signalling, and train staff...I feel like this project is on a scale bigger than UPX by a factor of 3 or 4, before the tunnelling...

 

[mdrejhon]

Nfitz, I must, must admonish that Paris successfully runs HEAVY RAIL RER services every three minutes at peak on some tracks. And usig smaller trains moving more total people than the big GO trains, thanks to sheer frequency. I can cite a few references if you do not believe me. Some Paris RER endpoints of three stations move less than 1000pph but them becomes near full in central sections.

SmartTrack 15-minute is no problem after switches/signalling/sensor/track/corridor upgrades, automatic train control possibly.

Have you been to an Europeam city with a subway style commuter train system? If not, then your skepticism is silly....and this is what I am saying despite me being one who tends to vote left.

See page 7 and 12 of the report.

 

[mdrejhon]

Most of it doesn't exist...they need to double or triple track large sections of it, buy property for those tracks, move the current tracks, build a couple dozen major bridges, do some major rail crossing grade separations, build more than a dozen new stations, buy land for those stations, electrify it all, electrify lakeshore (to get trains in and out of the maintenance facilities), buy hundreds of EMU's, plus potentially tunnel a huge amount of it (eglington, and downtown), buy a few TBM's, and then upgrade Union station, the signalling, and train staff...I feel like this project is on a scale bigger than UPX by a factor of 3 or 4, before the tunnelling...

Exactly. This is what makes 15-min-and-better possible.
I'd initially try to avoid tunnelling downtown (15min frequency is still possible without the tunnel...we already run many lakeshore trains every 15mins during peak from Union, look at Union departures from 430pm through 5:45pm for lakeshore trains)... But plan on doing it by 2031 to accomodate all the GO RER expansion.

Georgetown corridor (SmartTrack west side) is pretty much done in grade separation and is already 15-min-frequency-friendly after a bit furrther work. So it we need a Georgetown style megaproject on the east side of Union.

Eglinton is one of the bigger challenges, though.

 

[Adjei]

Good thing they are doing a feasibility study on the Eglinton section. Hopefully once they realize the costs outweigh any benefits for that section, it gets canned. The rest of Smartrack sounds good but that sections looks like it was drawn one to appease Ford nation.

 

[W. K. Lis]

The SmartTrack background report is calling for "heavy rail" along Eglinton West and a wider headway of 15 minutes, whence the wide spacing of the stations. With "light rail" with the Crosstown LRT there would be more stations and closer together, with narrower headways of 5 minutes or better.

I prefer the Crosstown LRT option for Eglinton West.

 

[WislaHD]

Is there any indication in the report that UPX may be studied as the western leg of SmartTrack?

 

[nfitz]

Nfitz, I must, must admoish that Paris successfully runs HEAVY RAIL RER services every three minutes at peak on some tracks. And usig smaller trains moving more total people than the big GO trains, thanks to sheer frequency. I can cite a few references if you do not believe me. Some Paris RER endpoints of three stations move less than 1000pph but them becomes near full in central sections.

I don't doubt for a second that heavy rail can't run every 2 minutes (surely Toronto's subway is a good example).

I simply don't believe that there is the demand on Eglinton West between Mount Dennis and Renforth for heavy rail once every 15 minutes. Remember the demand for the Eglinton West was only 800 passengers an hour at Renforth. That's less than the existing GO lines. Sure, it will go up some if it's direct to Union. But at best, the solution is to extend the Eglinton Line as originally planned to Renforth. Not to build a brand new heavy rail alignment.

I confess to no knowing what admoish means - I can't even put the word in contect. A couple beers to many perhaps?

Have you been to an Europeam city with a subway style commuter train system?

Does it matter? Yes, I was born in one of them actually - and have been back, many, many times. Should I scan my Oyster card sitting on top of today's Toronto Star?

If not, then your skepticism is silly....and this is what I am saying despite me being one who tends to vote left.

Can you point out a single European city that deferred a piece of LRT line because the demand was too low - and then went ahead and built heavy rail only the same alignment with 15-minute service instead? How is skepticism that we'll really be building heavy rail on Eglinton West silly? I think heavy rail at Renforth for 800 people per hour is silly!