Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

[Rainforest]

More to the point, why are we even building the DSBRT along Ellesmere if Sheppard is the designated 'crosstown' ROW. The BRT should deliver people to a major interchange. If Line 4 goes to McCowan, then 'crosstown' trips will have to use the BRT to STC, transfer on Line 2, go north one stop and transfer to Line 4. Some cross-town solution we're building, with 10 minutes of wasted transfer time!

Is the response that Sheppard E beyond McCowan has very little on it, while Ellesmere has a major university campus and hospital? You don't say. Perhaps Ellesmere would be more relevant for cross-town, regional trips.

Basically, keeping the line on Sheppard is better for everyone north of the 401 (not just near Sheppard / McCowan, but on any bus heading to the subway). Diverting to STC is better for everyone south of the 401.

My preference is staying on Sheppard. But a terminus at STC wouldn't be horrible either.

 

[MrGoose]

Needs to hit Mississauga City Centre.

If you turn the Mississauga transit way into a train, there will be a more or less direct ride from the airport.

A bit redundant imo.

 

[gweed123]

Ah, interlining Ontario Line and the converted Sheppard? I didn't think of that initially, only thought about the fleet sharing and carhouse. But yes, that's an option; say half of the OL trains reach Sheppard and then continue along Sheppard to the eastern terminus.

Exactly. OL reaches Sheppard & Victoria Park, and one branch goes west to Dufferin, and the other goes east to McCowan or Malvern or Centennial College. Another route runs straight across Sheppard.

If the Sheppard line is expected to continue west past Dufferin, and/or east past McCowan, then it is likely that the convertion to light metro is the cheaper option overall. Easier to go elevated, easier to squeeze through tight spaces, make sharp turns etc.

Unfortunately, I expect Metrolinx to optimize Phase 1; whatever it is but probably Dufferin to Yonge plus Don Mills to McCowan. Once the goal is set like that, keeping the existing technology is probably cheaper and definitely comes with fewer surprises at the construction time.

Thus, we get the heavy-rail subway from Dufferin all the way to McCowan. And then we will have to forget about convertion.

Agreed. Light Metro would make future extensions more feasible, but if all that's being looked at is the first set of extensions, then subway makes more sense. It really all depends on how far down the road Metrolinx wants to look.

Also, I'd like to see more lines use the OL technology, so it doesn't become an orphan system like the SRT. It has real potential to be used as a BART type of network for the GTA. The initial segment that is being built now is similar to the BART tunnel in SF in a lot of ways. It just needs to be set up for cost-effective suburban expansions with wider stop spacing in order to reach its true potential.

 

[Coolibop]

Is the plan here to reinvent the EELRT (line 7)? I thought this was priority project for the city always assuming the (line 4) subway was extended to McCowan. Are we changing our minds yet again?

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

What are the stations on this line if it goes through? What do people think?

 

[Sunnyside]

Is the plan here to reinvent the EELRT (line 7)? I thought this was priority project for the city always assuming the (line 4) subway was extended to McCowan. Are we changing our minds yet again?

Depends. My last post here was basically me saying that the continuity of the line shown in the study area means nothing except that RT will be along the entire stretch. Most likely this means that the implied plan of subway to McCowan, LRT beyond to connect/become EELRT. But the ambiguity could also imply one mode (subway or otherwise) the entire way. I don’t think this is likely unless we see it elevated for the most part, and it has to be a political grab or a “proof of concept” for how much more we can get with elevated RT— basically saying “screw LRT, we can build subways anywhere if their elevated”.

…Unlikely, but Fords been under a lot of heat, and while I don’t know how politically significant this area (Malvern) is provincially, it might be seen as a good play…

 

[Sunnyside]

What are the stations on this line if it goes through? What do people think?

Depends on if they go elevated/cut and cover, or bore it. If the former then logically a station at every major concession for a 1km stop spacing (modified slightly for Agincourt GO). If the latter, then probably much further apart (~2km), skipping a few major streets.

 

[Bojaxs]

Depends on if they go elevated/cut and cover, or bore it. If the former then logically a station at every major concession for a 1km stop spacing (modified slightly for Agincourt GO). If the latter, then probably much further apart (~2km), skipping a few major streets.

How would you make elevation work for this extension? Do we elevate over the 404? Do we elevated over the Stouffville line and the CP rail tracks? If we have to elevate over the Stouffville line, it's going to make connecting this line to Agincourt GO difficult.

 

[mossynukes]

What are the stations on this line if it goes through? What do people think?

assuming they go through with the dufferin to mccowan, I predict something like: Sheppard west-bathurst- current stations- VP/consumers - Warden - Agincourt Mall betwwen birchmount and kennedy - agincourt Go- Mccowan

 

[MrGoose]

How would you make elevation work for this extension? Do we elevate over the 404?

Yes. We're elevating the Hurontario Line over the 403 and the 401

Do we elevated over the Stouffville line and the CP rail tracks?

Yes.

If we have to elevate over the Stouffville line, it's going to make connecting this line to Agincourt GO difficult.

Not really, Secaucus Junction in NJ makes it work. The Davenport Diamond makes it work. Theres a big parking lot in front of the station, a couple of big SFH lots where a station could go.

Elevated rail is a mature technology and there is nothing magical about Toronto that makes it anymore difficult.

 

[Rainforest]

How would you make elevation work for this extension? Do we elevate over the 404? Do we elevated over the Stouffville line and the CP rail tracks? If we have to elevate over the Stouffville line, it's going to make connecting this line to Agincourt GO difficult.

The subway will be tunneled under the 404, for sure. The Don Mills station is very deep, no chance to get above the surface before the 404.

I do not know about the Stouffville line and the CP line. My guess though, they will tunnel all the way from Don Mills to McCowan. That option isn't necessarily the cheapest, but comes with fewer construction-time surprises and fewer resident complains.

If they consider elevated en route to McCowan at all, that will only happen if the route swings from Sheppard to the 401 corridor somewhere east of Vic Park. The 401 happens to cross over the Stouffville line and the CP line, as well as over Birchmount / Kennedy / Midland.

 

[81-717]

If they consider elevated en route to McCowan at all, that will only happen if the route swings from Sheppard to the 401 corridor somewhere east of Vic Park.

Perhaps renumbering line 4 to line 401 would be in order then

 

[Sunnyside]

The subway will be tunneled under the 404, for sure. The Don Mills station is very deep, no chance to get above the surface before the 404.

I do not know about the Stouffville line and the CP line. My guess though, they will tunnel all the way from Don Mills to McCowan. That option isn't necessarily the cheapest, but comes with fewer construction-time surprises and fewer resident complains.

If they consider elevated en route to McCowan at all, that will only happen if the route swings from Sheppard to the 401 corridor somewhere east of Vic Park. The 401 happens to cross over the Stouffville line and the CP line, as well as over Birchmount / Kennedy / Midland.

A portal could be built somewhere along the alignment fairly easily, it’s been discussed before that using the 401 is both unnecessary and not ideal anyway. You’d still need a portal, and the 401 lacks any significant ROW space for it compared to Sheppard anyhow.

Now for a western extension beyond Sheppard west, It might use the 401 for a bit out of necessity, terminating at Pearson via Wilson, the 401 and Kitchener corridor.

The 427 is a special exception of needing to use a highway ROW (eventually) since the only dense development is exclusively oriented around it. The 407 gets a pass because the ROW is huge and was built for transit. The 401 comparatively has low nearby density and its stuffed ROW won’t even save any money.

Let’s remember that the issue with Line 4 (if any) is that it’s length means there aren’t enough trips that can make use of it. while sending it via the 401 will make more trips possible, they won’t be easy or feel safe. No one wants to walk to the middle of a highway, MUCH less this one. So just keep it where the people are.

 

[jmi22]

Depends. My last post here was basically me saying that the continuity of the line shown in the study area means nothing except that RT will be along the entire stretch. Most likely this means that the implied plan of subway to McCowan, LRT beyond to connect/become EELRT. But the ambiguity could also imply one mode (subway or otherwise) the entire way. I don’t think this is likely unless we see it elevated for the most part, and it has to be a political grab or a “proof of concept” for how much more we can get with elevated RT— basically saying “screw LRT, we can build subways anywhere if their elevated”.

…Unlikely, but Fords been under a lot of heat, and while I don’t know how politically significant this area (Malvern) is provincially, it might be seen as a good play…

I would love to see a scrapping of EELRT for real rapid transit, as if it gets built the very underserved neighbourhoods in eastern scarborough will be stuck with the inadequate mode for decades

 

[Sunnyside]

I would love to see a scrapping of EELRT for real rapid transit, as if it gets built the very underserved neighbourhoods in eastern scarborough will be stuck with the inadequate mode for decades

Im open to LRT in general as a means to upgrade local bus service, but in most situations it cannot be true RT since that entails speeds that are competitive with basically any other mode in a given context. So in my books that means the busier urban corridors with high ridership and alightings on a per-km basis, not merely ridership on the entire route.

This is my interpretation of the need you describe, which contradicts using LRT. In essence, the further out you are, the faster transit needs to be because there’s fewer destinations. As we plan it, LRT intends to increase such activity along it. But we’re building them to improve the pre-existing trip patterns! We know this, it’s why we extend our subways- but costs prohibit being more generous. Hence we have always been obsessed with “intermediate capacity” transit in Ontario. We might be figuring things out now though; 3 LRTs are on the horizon, and their performance will be looked at closely.