Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

[44 North]

not that i disagree with you, but i think it's even less likely they convert Line 4 to light metro or light rail. i've heard in the past that it would be > than a billion just to do so.

that's why it probably makes more sense to just combine/loop Line 4 with Line 2. that way this is never a discussion in the future to push for either line to go further North or East when it makes no sense financially to do so.

If the trains are the same there'd be no cost to convert.

Not sure if using shorter trains made of wide TTC subway cars will save a lot of money. But if it will, then I'd go with the current 4-car trains.

Two cars / 12k pphp is probably too little for the central segment. It may be below 5.5k pphp today, but as the length of the subway increases, there will be more reasons to switch to the subway from the parallel routes. I think 12k or even 15k pphp can be achieved on the sufficiently long Sheppard line.

Our trains are wide. But interestingly they have a significantly smaller profile than those proposed for the Ontario Line. And 12k pphpd is a lot of capacity and effectively future-proofed.

 

[Aplus23]

Markham & Sheppard is pretty densified with plenty more room to grow.

 

[sixrings]

Markham & Sheppard is pretty densified with plenty more room to grow.

Exactly and now with the sale of downsview park the sky is the limit on the west side as well.

Plus we can have a subway stop at oakdale golf and country club for all the workers who can’t afford a car. These people have to work in a place where they serve people who drive Ferraris and Lambos and we as a city are saying we can’t even provide a subway ride for them. Take the bus you filthy animal. That’s absolutely disgraceful.

 

[Aplus23]

Exactly and now with the sale of downsview park the sky is the limit on the west side as well.

Plus we can have a subway stop at oakdale golf and country club for all the workers who can’t afford a car. These people have to work in a place where they serve people who drive Ferraris and Lambos and we as a city are saying we can’t even provide a subway ride for them. Take the bus you filthy animal. That’s absolutely disgraceful.

You win pal, u win. Are you okay now

 

[ARG1]

That's a nice populist soundbite, but the reality is much more complicated.

The GTA is growing and the amount of people who can't afford to live in walking distance to their work is getting larger all the time. They don't all live in the same place. Giving one group a huge, overbuilt subway means that much less money that could be spent on improvements for anyone else.

Like I said, if these places want subways, fine. They can pay for them, in full.

Just build BRT then

 

[sixrings]

Correct. Anything but LRT. That’s for small towns like Kitchener, Hamilton, Mississauga, Brampton and Ottawa. Toronto is one day going to over take New York and as a result we must keep room and save money for Subways.

Plus one day suburbs like Scarborough with multiple subway lines, GO train lines and walkable life style will attract the super affluent. The only people who live in the homes there will be the super rich. They will need as much road space as possible for their Mercedes collections.

Just build BRT then

 

[T3G]

Just build BRT then

I'm not opposed. I brought up LRT because it's possible to have larger capacity increases for the cost of only one driver than BRT by coupling multiple units together, which seems to me to be a better form of "future proofing". However, if the demand is only there for BRT, I have no objection.

VIVA is a pretty good service (at any rate, VIVA Blue is, anyway), if it was given transit priority the transformation could be radical.

 

[sixrings]

I'm not opposed. I brought up LRT because it's possible to have larger capacity increases for the cost of only one driver than BRT by coupling multiple units together, which seems to me to be a better form of "future proofing". However, if the demand is only there for BRT, I have no objection.

VIVA is a pretty good service (at any rate, VIVA Blue is, anyway), if it was given transit priority the transformation could be radical.

You can built multiple BRTs for the same price as a LRT. Plus Toronto is incompetent and it’s LRT construction costs far exceed other cities which know what they are doing because we are too concerned about lining unions pockets.

 

[ARG1]

Correct. Anything but LRT. That’s for small towns like Kitchener, Hamilton, Mississauga, Brampton and Ottawa. Toronto is one day going to over take New York and as a result we must keep room and save money for Subways.

Plus one day suburbs like Scarborough with multiple subway lines, GO train lines and walkable life style will attract the super affluent. The only people who live in the homes there will be the super rich. They will need as much road space as possible for their Mercedes collections.

Your bad faith snarkiness doesn't benefit anyone or the conversation as a whole. If the only thing you're able to do is strawman everyone's opinions to oblivion, why are you here? I've demonstrated before that I can easily start an arms race of bad faith arguments that aims to discredit your entire position, but I think that's silly because its a mud slinging contest that doesn't benefit anyone.

I'm not opposed. I brought up LRT because it's possible to have larger capacity increases for the cost of only one driver than BRT by coupling multiple units together, which seems to me to be a better form of "future proofing". However, if the demand is only there for BRT, I have no objection.

VIVA is a pretty good service (at any rate, VIVA Blue is, anyway), if it was given transit priority the transformation could be radical.

It's a matter of where that capacity is needed, and a matter of how many people you're moving per km. There's a reason why I support projects like the Waterfront East LRT meanwhile I'm iffy about projects like Hurontario.

As a whole, even though I agree that the increased operational costs of BRT are a point of concern, I'd much rather pay that higher operational cost if it means getting a bus every 1-2 minutes vs a larger LRV every 5-7m. Not to mention, I did the math at some point, and I think it was something like the operational costs of running a BRT caught up with the capital costs of LRT after 30 or so years of operations, which is the timeframe that these projects are designed for, and at which point you're due for an upgrade anyway.

 

[sixrings]

Your bad faith snarkiness doesn't benefit anyone or the conversation as a whole. If the only thing you're able to do is strawman everyone's opinions to oblivion, why are you here? I've demonstrated before that I can easily start an arms race of bad faith arguments that aims to discredit your entire position, but I think that's silly because its a mud slinging contest that doesn't benefit anyone.


It's a matter of where that capacity is needed, and a matter of how many people you're moving per km. There's a reason why I support projects like the Waterfront East LRT meanwhile I'm iffy about projects like Hurontario.

As a whole, even though I agree that the increased operational costs of BRT are a point of concern, I'd much rather pay that higher operational cost if it means getting a bus every 1-2 minutes vs a larger LRV every 5-7m. Not to mention, I did the math at some point, and I think it was something like the operational costs of running a BRT caught up with the capital costs of LRT after 30 or so years of operations, which is the timeframe that these projects are designed for, and at which point you're due for an upgrade anyway.

I am a convert. Coffey1 and Onecity came over for dinner and showed me the error of my ways. They have given up the fight. Please let me share my support of this subway as it is the best use of our tax dollars.

Also agreed that waterfront east definitely needs a lrt while I fully believe it makes sense for waterfront west to be content with a street car. After all they have gotten by so far out there.

 

[ARG1]

I am a convert. Coffey1 and Onecity came over for dinner and showed me the error of my ways. They have given up the fight. Please let me share my support of this subway as it is the best use of our tax dollars.

You're really not helping your case. Also, I still have no idea who those are. You keep bringing them up as if mentioning their name means anything to anyone who joined after the pandemic started.

 

[sixrings]

You're really not helping your case. Also, I still have no idea who those are. You keep bringing them up as if mentioning their name means anything to anyone who joined after the pandemic started.

So sad. They were transit legends on here. They single handed managed to derail the SRT to LRT conversion, put a stop to the silly Sheppard LRT and tricked people into thinking they could have both the danforth extension and the Eglinton east lrt. A little fibbing is not so bad when what was at stake was transfer city. You would have loved them.

Anyways let’s get on with building sheppard.

 

[Islington Express Bus]

All the discussion we're having in this thread feels so premature. Sheppard extension is so low-priority and so far away. Things like current density and travel patterns won't be relevant by the time this line starts being planned in like 20 years.

The following Toronto projects should have priority over a Sheppard extension in my opinion:

• All current projects (Eglinton, Eglinton West, Ontario, Finch, Yonge North, Scarborough Subway) <---some of these have barely started
• Ontario line north
• Ontario line west
• Waterfront LRT, east and West
• Finch LRT extensions to Pearson and Yonge
• Eglinton Pearson extension

Honestly, I'd extend Sheppard west for network connectivity purposes before extending it east.

 

[blacksquirrels]

If the trains are the same there'd be no cost to convert.

and if my aunt were my uncle. Line 4 uses Toronto gauge. I don't see a light metro being anything other than standard.

​

 

[sixrings]

All the discussion we're having in this thread feels so premature. Sheppard extension is so low-priority and so far away. Things like current density and travel patterns won't be relevant by the time this line starts being planned in like 20 years.

The following Toronto projects should have priority over a Sheppard extension in my opinion:

• All current projects (Eglinton, Eglinton West, Ontario, Finch, Yonge North, Scarborough Subway) <---some of these have barely started
• Ontario line north
• Ontario line west
• Waterfront LRT, east and West
• Finch LRT extensions to Pearson and Yonge
• Eglinton Pearson extension

Honestly, I'd extend Sheppard west for network connectivity purposes before extending it east.

Of course you would. Your bias is in your name. You live out west and want as much transit which you might use at the expense of the people out east. This is no better than David Miller and his pet projects.

The west has the Bloor line, eglinton west and the finch lrt.

The east sadly only has the danforth line. Eglinton east. Sheppard subway and the Ontario line. Can you not clearly see how underserved the east is?