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Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

I appreciate that @T3G and @sixrings actually addressed the points that I made.

I am pro-LRT in general, but only if they are done the right way. LRTs throughout many cities in Europe, including Bordeaux do a great job because they get strong signal priority in at grade sections and they tend to have at least 1 km stop distances. They tend to move pretty fast. However, Toronto tends to keep LRT average speeds low, just as the Finch LRT average speed is a lot slower than it should be, either due to stop distances, or lack of signal priority and a lot of traffic lights. Just as the issues pointed out with Spadina and St. Clair haven't been actually dealt with, just because in theory they are easy to correct by providing signal priority and eliminating a bunch of stops, doesn't mean that they actually will be dealt with. So if we know that Toronto will screw it up, and most likely will not correct issues to make it faster and more reliable, then it is not worth spending *several billions of dollars* to build them to begin with. I'm emphasizing that I agree that these issues are relatively easy and not expensive to correct, but this city will most likely keep LRTs slow and not correct them. Even if Metrolinx is operating the LRTs, it is the city that decided not to give it proper signal priority, so these issues are likely to remain.

That's why I'm not in favour of building them, and why I referred to them as 'shitty'. I'm not referring to LRTs as shitty, but when they are done in Toronto, I do believe they are shitty. And that's why I'm not in favour of building them in Toronto. I only think they are worth it if they have reasonable stop distances (preferably 1 km but that's my opinion) and signal priority. If not, I'd prefer grade separated transit if we will be spending billions anyways.

Also, for context (in response to sixrings), I take the TTC five days a week from Warden and Steeles to downtown. Two buses and Line 1 from Finch Stn.
 
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The Eglinton East LRT seems to dot he same thing a Sheppard East Subway can do. If the plan is to extend either Bloor or Sheppard east into Durham It would make sense to not do the Eglinton East LRT project.
 
I appreciate that @T3G and @sixrings actually addressed the points that I made. I see why you folks support them now.

I am pro-LRT in general, but only if they are done the right way. LRTs throughout many cities in Europe, including Bordeaux do a great job because they get strong signal priority in at grade sections and they tend to have at least 1 km stop distances. They tend to move pretty fast. However, Toronto tends to keep LRT average speeds low, just as the Finch LRT average speed is a lot slower than it should be, either due to stop distances, or lack of signal priority and a lot of traffic lights. Just as the issues pointed out with Spadina and St. Clair haven't been actually dealt with, just because in theory they are easy to correct by providing signal priority and eliminating a bunch of stops, doesn't mean that they actually will be dealt with. So if we know that Toronto will screw it up, and most likely will not correct issues to make it faster and more reliable, then it is not worth spending *several billions of dollars* to build them to begin with. I'm emphasizing that I agree that these issues are relatively easy and not expensive to correct, but this city will most likely keep LRTs slow and not correct them. Even if Metrolinx is operating the LRTs, it is the city that decided not to give it proper signal priority, so these issues are likely to remain.

That's why I'm not in favour of building them, and why I referred to them as 'shitty'. I'm not referring to LRTs as shitty, but when they are done in Toronto, I do believe they are shitty. And that's why I'm not in favour of building them in Toronto. I only think they are worth it if they have reasonable stop distances (preferably 1 km but that's my opinion) and signal priority. If not, I'd prefer grade separated transit if we will be spending billions anyways.

Also, for context (in response to sixrings), I take the TTC five days a week from Warden and Steeles to downtown. Two buses and Line 1 from Finch Stn.
LRT's work best when they're built with the intention of maximizing their speed. Even if it means tunnelling or elevating stretches of the line through dense neighbourhoods. The line should be as straight as possible. So it's a clean shot across the city.
I was just in Calgary where I witnessed the C-trians flying through intersections. The trade off was having noisy & unsightly rail crossing and arms. But those LRTs were absolutely flying! Probably as fast as a subway.
So many recent LRT's built in Canada have been awful. The Waterloo ION craaaawls through the downtown core. Ottawa is plagued with issues. And now they want to scrap the 403 bridge for the Hamilton LRT and replace it with two 90 degree turns which will slow the LRT right down.

In this video, Edmonton transit even tells the public that slower LRT's are the new reality. WOW! Talk about encouraging people to get out of their cars and take transit.

It's like the people who plan these LRT lines have no understanding of the value of "time", or frankly they just don't give a damn. Just straight disrespect towards the people who ride transit
 
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LRT's work best when they're built with the intention of maximizing their speed. Even if it means tunnelling or elevating stretches of the line through dense neighbourhoods. The line should be as straight as possible. So it's a clean shot across the city.
I was just in Calgary where I witnessed the C-trians flying through intersections. The trade off was having noisy & unsightly rail crossing and arms. But those LRTs were absolutely flying! Probably as fast as a subway.
So many recent LRT's built in Canada have been awful. The Waterloo ION craaaawls through the downtown core. Ottawa is plagued with issues. And now they want to scrap the 403 bridge for the Hamilton LRT and replace it with two 90 degree turns which will slow the LRT right down.

In this video Edmonton transit even tells the public that slower LRT's are the new reality. WOW! Talk about encouraging people to get out of their car an take transit.

It's like the people who plan these LRT lines have no understanding of the value of "time", or frankly they just don't give a damn. Just straight disrespect towards the people who ride transit
The more they slow down LRTs the more people will want subways instead.

I fail to see how speed is an irrelevant factor for transit users.
 
LRT's work best when they're built with the intention of maximizing their speed. Even if it means tunnelling or elevating stretches of the line through dense neighbourhoods. The line should be as straight as possible. So it's a clean shot across the city.
I was just in Calgary where I witnessed the C-trians flying through intersections. The trade off was having noisy & unsightly rail crossing and arms. But those LRTs were absolutely flying! Probably as fast as a subway.
So many recent LRT's built in Canada have been awful. The Waterloo ION craaaawls through the downtown core. Ottawa is plagued with issues. And now they want to scrap the 403 bridge for the Hamilton LRT and replace it with two 90 degree turns which will slow the LRT right down.

In this video Edmonton transit even tells the public that slower LRT's are the new reality. WOW! Talk about encouraging people to get out of their car an take transit.

It's like the people who plan these LRT lines have no understanding of the value of "time", or frankly they just don't give a damn. Just straight disrespect towards the people who ride transit
I lived in Calgary 20 years ago. The c train then had service more like a go train than the subway. There would be times trains came once every 20 minutes and other times once every half hour. So as a driver the gates going down to let the train through wasn’t a big deal. Now if the trains were going by every five minutes that would cause some real driving chaos and Calgary people love their cars/trucks even more so than torontonians. It should also be noted that the majority of the c train line does not go down major streets. That’s good for far out commuters like a go train line is but it was often hard to access by walking to. I’d like to see the system in 2024.
 
I think we have enough LRT threads to discuss barrier arms there (and I say that as someone who thinks there is merit to at least partial provision of them on some parts of the street rail network)
 
LRT's work best when they're built with the intention of maximizing their speed. Even if it means tunnelling or elevating stretches of the line through dense neighbourhoods. The line should be as straight as possible. So it's a clean shot across the city.
I was just in Calgary where I witnessed the C-trians flying through intersections. The trade off was having noisy & unsightly rail crossing and arms. But those LRTs were absolutely flying! Probably as fast as a subway.
So many recent LRT's built in Canada have been awful. The Waterloo ION craaaawls through the downtown core. Ottawa is plagued with issues. And now they want to scrap the 403 bridge for the Hamilton LRT and replace it with two 90 degree turns which will slow the LRT right down.

In this video Edmonton transit even tells the public that slower LRT's are the new reality. WOW! Talk about encouraging people to get out of theirs car and take transit.

It's like the people who plan these LRT lines have no understanding of the value of "time", or frankly they just don't give a damn. Just straight disrespect towards the people who ride transit
This is just silly, comparing LRT speeds vs road speed limits. The average vehicle speed would be much lower and have far more conflicts than an LRT vehicle would.
 
LRT's work best when they're built with the intention of maximizing their speed. Even if it means tunnelling or elevating stretches of the line through dense neighbourhoods. The line should be as straight as possible. So it's a clean shot across the city.
I was just in Calgary where I witnessed the C-trians flying through intersections. The trade off was having noisy & unsightly rail crossing and arms. But those LRTs were absolutely flying! Probably as fast as a subway.
So many recent LRT's built in Canada have been awful. The Waterloo ION craaaawls through the downtown core. Ottawa is plagued with issues. And now they want to scrap the 403 bridge for the Hamilton LRT and replace it with two 90 degree turns which will slow the LRT right down.

In this video Edmonton transit even tells the public that slower LRT's are the new reality. WOW! Talk about encouraging people to get out of theirs car and take transit.

It's like the people who plan these LRT lines have no understanding of the value of "time", or frankly they just don't give a damn. Just straight disrespect towards the people who ride transit
I watched the cabride for the Valley Line the day it opened, and its amazing how quickly it went from 100 to 1. The section from Mill Woods to Davies was perfectly fine, but as soon as it left the elevated guideway and entered the median of 83rd St, it just slowed to a crawl and stayed that way until downtown. The difference in speed is night and day when you compare it to the Capital Line, or the 2 C-Train lines.
 
I think we have enough LRT threads to discuss barrier arms there (and I say that as someone who thinks there is merit to at least partial provision of them on some parts of the street rail network)
Houston has barrier arms and they still do not stop drivers making illegal turns or going through the intersection.
 
LRT would have been a wonderful solution along Sheppard and Finch East. I think it could have worked really well had it been implemented when originally theorized in Transit City nearly 20 years ago.

But that time has passed. In the future Line 4 will connect 4 Rapid transit lines and will be a major feeder route destination for an area that stretches well into York Region. Fare integration will put added ridership on the new line as new feeder routes emerge from York Region. Today, Steeles, Finch, and Sheppard East carry a combined 75,000 daily riders in heavy traffic. In addition, North-South routes through Sheppard would also contribute a significant portion of their ridership to the line as well.

It would be without foresight to implement LRT in this corridor. Extend the Subway to McCowan and get it over with. This isn't Mississauga.
 
LRT would have been a wonderful solution along Sheppard and Finch East. I think it could have worked really well had it been implemented when originally theorized in Transit City nearly 20 years ago.

But that time has passed. In the future Line 4 will connect 4 Rapid transit lines and will be a major feeder route destination for an area that stretches well into York Region. Fare integration will put added ridership on the new line as new feeder routes emerge from York Region. Today, Steeles, Finch, and Sheppard East carry a combined 75,000 daily riders in heavy traffic. In addition, North-South routes through Sheppard would also contribute a significant portion of their ridership to the line as well.

It would be without foresight to implement LRT in this corridor. Extend the Subway to McCowan and get it over with. This isn't Mississauga.
Why did you bring mississauga into this. What’s that about. Pretty sure square one is far denser than Scarborough town centre even when we look out 30 years.
 
I appreciate that @T3G and @sixrings actually addressed the points that I made. I see why you folks support them now.

I am pro-LRT in general, but only if they are done the right way. LRTs throughout many cities in Europe, including Bordeaux do a great job because they get strong signal priority in at grade sections and they tend to have at least 1 km stop distances. They tend to move pretty fast. However, Toronto tends to keep LRT average speeds low, just as the Finch LRT average speed is a lot slower than it should be, either due to stop distances, or lack of signal priority and a lot of traffic lights. Just as the issues pointed out with Spadina and St. Clair haven't been actually dealt with, just because in theory they are easy to correct by providing signal priority and eliminating a bunch of stops, doesn't mean that they actually will be dealt with. So if we know that Toronto will screw it up, and most likely will not correct issues to make it faster and more reliable, then it is not worth spending *several billions of dollars* to build them to begin with. I'm emphasizing that I agree that these issues are relatively easy and not expensive to correct, but this city will most likely keep LRTs slow and not correct them. Even if Metrolinx is operating the LRTs, it is the city that decided not to give it proper signal priority, so these issues are likely to remain.

That's why I'm not in favour of building them, and why I referred to them as 'shitty'. I'm not referring to LRTs as shitty, but when they are done in Toronto, I do believe they are shitty. And that's why I'm not in favour of building them in Toronto. I only think they are worth it if they have reasonable stop distances (preferably 1 km but that's my opinion) and signal priority. If not, I'd prefer grade separated transit if we will be spending billions anyways.

Also, for context (in response to sixrings), I take the TTC five days a week from Warden and Steeles to downtown. Two buses and Line 1 from Finch Stn.
It sounds more from your comments that the issue with LRTs in this city are institutional/governance issues that prevent best practices from being implemented, just like how Toronto can't seem to stop drivers from driving on King or Toronto Hydro from cutting up newly poured sidewalks.

The question thereby could be reframed as to how exactly this institutional mindset can be shifted, perhaps at a cost benefit compared to designing around these institutional issues.

My recollection of that time was that stuff like the garbage strike and the “let it melt” approach to snow removal were far bigger problems for his re-election prospects than LRVs on Finch.
I remember being somewhat disappointed in the resolution of the Garbage strike. I think that some of these city service frustrations in Miller's late term directly led to Ford, IMO.
 

Building and Expanding Light Rail Transit​

The government is bringing fast, reliable transit projects to help reduce travel times and create more transit options, including [...]
  • Proposed Sheppard East Extension: The government is currently studying options and seeking community input to extend rapid transit east along Sheppard Avenue, which would improve transit connections in Toronto’s north end and make it easier and faster for people to get around Toronto and the LRT.
I think the Ontario budget documents could do with a spell check 😅
 

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