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Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

sixrings said:
See if you think both the drl long and the danforth extension will be done by 2035 I think that's where our conversation ends. You just see our transit timelines one way and I see them the polar opposite. Every 4 years we get a new mayor. In other years we get a new premier. And then in the other year we get a new PM. Basically one of those three are always changing. Yet it takes all three to agree for anything to get built. Even if all three agree by the time something starts a new government on one of those levels can come in and cancel and or delay a project. So I just don't think it's realistic to be that optimistic when we can't build on our own but are at the mercy of both the province and the feds. Even in transit city case where we had everyone agree, defered spending screwed everything up. Now we're talking about projects which are exponentially more expensive. Good luck.
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Too bad Miller wasn't around for another term. Seems he was the only one capable of building consensus and navigating the different levels of government to get things done.
 
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Streety McCarface said:
It was built 2 decades ago. I agree Eglinton was the preferable corridor, but we're stuck with what we have. Sheppard is going to play an important role in the design of Relief line north so it's certainly worth discussing. Again, I'm not arguing an eastern extension should occur now or even in the next 20-40 years.

In terms of planning, the general rule of thumb is that we are able to build 2 subway lines/extensions at once. During this decade, it was the Line 1 extension and Line 5. The next two lines will probably be the Ontario Line/Relief Line south (hopefully the latter) and the YNSE. These make sense as priorities, so this isn't really a big deal. This will be completed by the 2030s, maybe spill into 2033, but the bulk of the work will likely be done before the 202* are finished. The next wave of projects would probably be Relief Line North with Sheppard Subway adjustments (Whether it's built out to Victoria park, or an interline is built) and the SSE, completed in 2040. Something on sheppard will need to be done by 2040, but it's not in the scope of an 8km extension, maybe a 2 km one that's built with RLN. But the point is that these discussions are going to have to happen before 2030 (when plans for RLN should be finalized and construction beginning). It's not that far out there. A full-on extension is another beastie, and that wouldn't be completed until the 2050s, which is fine, because 30 years can do a lot to a corridor.
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So you're saying we should be building one line that is politically unbeneficial but the system needs it and one line that may not be the best decision based on the system needs but is politically beneficial? Eglinton and TYSSE, Relief Line and YNSE, ? and SSE. ? and Sheppard. What are those system requirement equivalents for the latter two? Relief Line North and Relief Line West?
 
Okay, what is with so many people here and the misguided belief that the TYSSE was somehow not beneficial or a waste of money or what have you? It's a vital connection for the growing student population at York University, encourages York and Simcoe residents to take the GO train for more reasons, it set up the first link to the VIVA BRT system, and is pushing commuter parking outside of Toronto, on top of diverting commuters away from the crowded Yonge line. Building it entirely underground may not have been wise, but there was certainly an existing demand there that buses alone could not meet.

Sheppard right now is more of a stub since there is only one potential destination or transfer point exclusive to the line: Don Mills Station. It's too early to judge whether Sheppard should be extended east, except maybe up to Victoria Park, until we see the developments between Willowdale and Don Mills mature. There are other areas which already require the capacity of rapid transit right now, we should meet those first and foremost. By the time those are done, circumstances may have changed and our current priority list may be irrelevant.
 
north-of-anything said:
Okay, what is with so many people here and the misguided belief that the TYSSE was somehow not beneficial or a waste of money or what have you? It's a vital connection for the growing student population at York University, encourages York and Simcoe residents to take the GO train for more reasons, it set up the first link to the VIVA BRT system, and is pushing commuter parking outside of Toronto, on top of diverting commuters away from the crowded Yonge line. Building it entirely underground may not have been wise, but there was certainly an existing demand there that buses alone could not meet.

Sheppard right now is more of a stub since there is only one potential destination or transfer point exclusive to the line: Don Mills Station. It's too early to judge whether Sheppard should be extended east, except maybe up to Victoria Park, until we see the developments between Willowdale and Don Mills mature. There are other areas which already require the capacity of rapid transit right now, we should meet those first and foremost. By the time those are done, circumstances may have changed and our current priority list may be irrelevant.
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You've never been on a street car. How seriously do you want me to take your posts?
 
Leo_Chan said:
So you're saying we should be building one line that is politically unbeneficial but the system needs it and one line that may not be the best decision based on the system needs but is politically beneficial? Eglinton and TYSSE, Relief Line and YNSE, ? and SSE. ? and Sheppard. What are those system requirement equivalents for the latter two? Relief Line North and Relief Line West?
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I honestly do not understand what you're trying to say here so let me clarify my personal list of priorities:
2020-2030: RLS & YNSE
2030-2040: RLN (which may include adjustments to sheppard) & SSE
2040-2050: Sheppard Subway Extension (east or west, still don't know) & RLW

The YNSE is actually a really important extension because of the need for a northern yard and the need to remove the 2000 buses that travel down Yonge street between Steeles and Finch. The catch is that it has the potential to add some riders to an already overcrowded line, which is why RLS needs to be built to ensure there are no crowding issues at Bloor-Yonge.

Relief line North is obviously the next true priority after RLS, but building the full relief line in 1 stage is not feasible (it would take almost as long as building it in two stages). Investments in 7th cars for Line 1 trains, additional rolling stock procurement, and other enhancements will be needed before the new line reaches Sheppard avenue.

The real issue with this list is that the SSE is a little too late, the Mark Is will be dead a decade before a new line opens. The options are to either switch the YNSE and SSE (which would mean 1.5 billion dollars in lost productivity for people taking buses between finch and Steeles, plus another 50 million in drivers salaries, 25 million in fuel, and 100 million in lost vehicle hours), or replace the rolling stock on the line and wait an additional 20-30 years for the extension.
 
sixrings said:
See if you think both the drl long and the danforth extension will be done by 2035 I think that's where our conversation ends. You just see our transit timelines one way and I see them the polar opposite. Every 4 years we get a new mayor. In other years we get a new premier. And then in the other year we get a new PM. Basically one of those three are always changing. Yet it takes all three to agree for anything to get built. Even if all three agree by the time something starts a new government on one of those levels can come in and cancel and or delay a project. So I just don't think it's realistic to be that optimistic when we can't build on our own but are at the mercy of both the province and the feds. Even in transit city case where we had everyone agree, defered spending screwed everything up. Now we're talking about projects which are exponentially more expensive. Good luck.
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When on earth did I say I thought DRL long and the SSE would be done by 2035? I said construction through the 2030s, for completion (hopefully) by 2041.

This is just a timeline that I think is fair assuming cooperation between governments and assuming that lines start planning at least 5 years before their anticipated starting year. 10 years of construction per line (on average) doesn't seem over the top, even for the Relief Line south. (Relief Line north is a much easier line to build due to the lack of large buildings and older infrastructure along its corridor).
 
Streety McCarface said:
I honestly do not understand what you're trying to say here so let me clarify my personal list of priorities:
2020-2030: RLS & YNSE
2030-2040: RLN (which may include adjustments to sheppard) & SSE
2040-2050: Sheppard Subway Extension (east or west, still don't know) & RLW

The YNSE is actually a really important extension because of the need for a northern yard and the need to remove the 2000 buses that travel down Yonge street between Steeles and Finch. The catch is that it has the potential to add some riders to an already overcrowded line, which is why RLS needs to be built to ensure there are no crowding issues at Bloor-Yonge.

Relief line North is obviously the next true priority after RLS, but building the full relief line in 1 stage is not feasible (it would take almost as long as building it in two stages). Investments in 7th cars for Line 1 trains, additional rolling stock procurement, and other enhancements will be needed before the new line reaches Sheppard avenue.

The real issue with this list is that the SSE is a little too late, the Mark Is will be dead a decade before a new line opens. The options are to either switch the YNSE and SSE (which would mean 1.5 billion dollars in lost productivity for people taking buses between finch and Steeles, plus another 50 million in drivers salaries, 25 million in fuel, and 100 million in lost vehicle hours), or replace the rolling stock on the line and wait an additional 20-30 years for the extension.
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I was just trying to reword your suggestion but to put it more bluntly: A very needed project that should be in place decades ago and a beneficial but not as justified project in regards to build order. Also, I agree with the priority order you listed.
 
picard102 said:
Guess that's why everyone voted for his successor Joe, and transit city is widely loved and is currently underway?
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Ford's win was the perfect storm (for him).

Transit City is actually underway - the Eglinton LRT will be done in a few years. The Finch West LRT is moving forward. There is a subway extension finished, started under his watch.

The only transit projects happening right now are Miller's - and he left office nearly a decade ago.

Another term in office for him and I'm sure we'd be further ahead right now.
 
Streety McCarface said:
When on earth did I say I thought DRL long and the SSE would be done by 2035? I said construction through the 2030s, for completion (hopefully) by 2041.

This is just a timeline that I think is fair assuming cooperation between governments and assuming that lines start planning at least 5 years before their anticipated starting year. 10 years of construction per line (on average) doesn't seem over the top, even for the Relief Line south. (Relief Line north is a much easier line to build due to the lack of large buildings and older infrastructure along its corridor).
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Most Provincial parties have some form of unity on these projects. The amalgamated City was an absolute disaster for planning and its much more reasonable to expect lines to be built in staged time frames.

Transit City was bi product of poor funding (at all levels), out of place territorial political ideologies in the massive amalgamated City and the apathy to just build something in many neglected areas of the City. The fact the Province has greater access to finance transit and we can now see designs without outside any attempts to remove stops or hack in lines should alleviate the worst of the delays that come with going back to fix makes the timelines more then reasonable. I imagine there will be the usual Toronto political activists groups making noise for the old LRT plan but thats all it will ever be now.
 
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Streety McCarface said:
The YNSE is actually a really important extension because of the need for a northern yard...
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Just to drive this point home, if you take a look at the TTC Capital Investment Plan (2019-2033), on page 27, you can see the needs for Line 1 (image below). This graph shows that by 2030, without accounting for any extension, Line 1 vehicle storage (Wilson & Davisville yards and various tail/storage tracks) will be at capacity to meet the the current headways. ATC will enable dropping that headway, but you can see the related increased requirement in vehicles to take full advantage of ATC will necessitate the northern (and likely $500M) yard.
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