Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

[OneCity]

What’s with all the debate about Subway vs LRT? I thought it was long been discussed that both have their merits and demerits, but the subway gets the majority praise since most people aren’t educated on the concept of the LRT(s). I believe this will improve when the Eglinton LRT opens, but at the end of the day, the vocal minority supporting the LRT are trying to beat the dead horse with ill educated people on plans that have not been sufficiently explained.

It's about design for any technology. The LRT gets alot of disdain for the fact its poorly designed. Connection is an issue here and they blew that on both Sheppard and the RT. Eglinton had its own issues removing car lanes and lack of grade separation.

Not to say there where not some legitimate concerns and moreso with the current subway issue but Ive met quite a few of those vocal LRT advocates propagating the technology and i'd argue many were far from educated.

The subway gets praise here because:

• Subway lready started on Sheppard
• Subway almost reaches the Centre with the BDL
• RT was an epic fail on many levels of transit building
• No added transfers for commuters
• Greater development demand with a connected Centre
• What we built or building to equal or lesser Centres

Im not too sure what all those vocal minority "evidence-based" rocket scientists promoting ('educating') transfer LRT after it was called out on obviousness were trying to achieve. But the continuous condescending speech over voters legitimate concerns undoubtedly helped Ford.

 

[pstogios]

That seems unlikely to me ... for one, he'd likely have been banned. Secondly, he of all people wouldn't be denying previous big whoppers about Scarborough transit ... oh wait, maybe he would LOL!

No, it’s him. He admitted it in a message to me. Unfortunately I can’t find it now.
He’s been the same the same paranoid, angry, “get off my lawn”, “Respect Scarborough”, “Subways subways subways”, Rob Ford crack-loving fake news-spreading guy all along.

 

[lead82]

It's about design for any technology. The LRT gets alot of disdain for the fact its poorly designed. Connection is an issue here and they blew that on both Sheppard and the RT. Eglinton had its own issues removing car lanes and lack of grade separation.

Not to say there where not some legitimate concerns and moreso with the current subway issue but Ive met quite a few of those vocal LRT advocates propagating the technology and i'd argue many were far from educated.

The subway gets praise here because:

• Subway lready started on Sheppard
• Subway almost reaches the Centre with the BDL
• RT was an epic fail on many levels of transit building
• No added transfers for commuters
• Greater development demand with a connected Centre
• What we built or building to equal or lesser Centres

Im not too sure what all those vocal minority "evidence-based" rocket scientists promoting ('educating') transfer LRT after it was called out on obviousness were trying to achieve. But the continuous condescending speech over voters legitimate concerns undoubtedly helped Ford.

I would agree that there were legitimate concerns with the LRT plan - e.g. too many stops, and created yet another orphan technology in Scarborough. However, the original Transit City has 3 LRT lines in Scarborough and at one point the main LRT was to be an extension of Eglinton into SCC and Malvern. Then it would have been a one-stop ride from SCC to mid-town and beyond.

The main problem I see with the subway plan is not the technology but that we are spending money to bury a line that could easily be above ground in parts of it and it doesn't address the main issue in Scarborough, which is that most people from there are not heading downtown but want to travel around Scarborough, which is a huge place. Sure greater development at SCC would be great but it wouldn't solve issues for the rest of the area at all. It wouldn't help students at Centennial or UTSC.

The city has done a piss-poor job on this file. It started under Miller, but continued under Ford and Tory. The most idiotic was the 1 stop express compromise. My point is that the province doesn't exactly have a stellar record either. The Liberals messed up transit planning under Metrolinx - projects delayed, canceled (e.g. Finch W LRT Keele - Yonge), put on hold (Sheppard E LRT). Stops added to curry favour for politicians and developer friends.

We will all stay tuned to see what Doug Ford does. He has the motivation to do something but will he play more games or actually man up with full funding to get shovels in the ground before the next election cycle? We shall see.

 

[syn]

I would agree that there were legitimate concerns with the LRT plan - e.g. too many stops, and created yet another orphan technology in Scarborough. However, the original Transit City has 3 LRT lines in Scarborough and at one point the main LRT was to be an extension of Eglinton into SCC and Malvern. Then it would have been a one-stop ride from SCC to mid-town and beyond.

The main problem I see with the subway plan is not the technology but that we are spending money to bury a line that could easily be above ground in parts of it and it doesn't address the main issue in Scarborough, which is that most people from there are not heading downtown but want to travel around Scarborough, which is a huge place. Sure greater development at SCC would be great but it wouldn't solve issues for the rest of the area at all. It wouldn't help students at Centennial or UTSC.

The city has done a piss-poor job on this file. It started under Miller, but continued under Ford and Tory. The most idiotic was the 1 stop express compromise. My point is that the province doesn't exactly have a stellar record either. The Liberals messed up transit planning under Metrolinx - projects delayed, canceled (e.g. Finch W LRT Keele - Yonge), put on hold (Sheppard E LRT). Stops added to curry favour for politicians and developer friends.

We will all stay tuned to see what Doug Ford does. He has the motivation to do something but will he play more games or actually man up with full funding to get shovels in the ground before the next election cycle? We shall see.

A lot of great points that are frequently ignored.

 

[Hopkins123]

How can you honestly say that?

Ford took the project that was the closest to shovel ready and delayed it an additional 4 years. 2030 may as well be never. The SSE is essentially delayed indefinitely now.

If I was a Scarborough commuter I would be livid at this outcome.

The Ontario Line and Yonge North are more important to Ford. If those projects are delayed at all you can expect SSE to be pushed back even further.

Just to circle back to the thread topic, Sheppard is even further down the priority list.

2030 is just a decade from now. Hyperbole much? The Ford Government is indeed giving an "indefinite" completion date as of now, but not necessarily any indication that the SSE will not ever be built. Not at all. No one looking at the issue objectively would come to such a conclusion. How any one could expect the Province with no guarantee of assistance from the Feds or the City, to fund and build five different subway projects all simultaneously at the same time baffles the mind.

So my statement is still firmly correct. We are in a better position now because there are people in power now that are actually committal to seeing these projects through. Transit City started as a concept in 2007 and only one line got under construction during the previous gov't's tenure. No one wanted a 6 km tunnel with no intermediate stops as the City's take-it-or-leave-it proposed ultimatum to Scarborough. No one wants their through trip through Kennedy needlessly inconvenienced by the transfer point. These are the same half-baked solutions the Left came up with that doomed the Sheppard East LRT from the start. No one wants to commit in excess of $3 billion on retrofitting the SRT to a LRT corridor when the need to extend Bloor-Danforth further will still present itself in the future. A future when today's $4 billion pricetag will surely double by then!

 

[Hopkins123]

Scarborough residents back LRT, but only slightly, poll says

Local residents prefer LRT over subway for Scarborough: poll

LRT Most Popular Choice for Scarborough Transit

Successive electoral defeat after defeat of politicians whom sided against subways is proof in the pudding of what the people actually want done in Scarborough.

 

[sixrings]

Because people vote only on one issue.

 

[narduch]

2030 is just a decade from now. Hyperbole much? The Ford Government is indeed giving an "indefinite" completion date as of now, but not necessarily any indication that the SSE will not ever be built. Not at all. No one looking at the issue objectively would come to such a conclusion. How any one could expect the Province with no guarantee of assistance from the Feds or the City, to fund and build five different subway projects all simultaneously at the same time baffles the mind.

So my statement is still firmly correct. We are in a better position now because there are people in power now that are actually committal to seeing these projects through. Transit City started as a concept in 2007 and only one line got under construction during the previous gov't's tenure. No one wanted a 6 km tunnel with no intermediate stops as the City's take-it-or-leave-it proposed ultimatum to Scarborough. No one wants their through trip through Kennedy needlessly inconvenienced by the transfer point. These are the same half-baked solutions the Left came up with that doomed the Sheppard East LRT from the start. No one wants to commit in excess of $3 billion on retrofitting the SRT to a LRT corridor when the need to extend Bloor-Danforth further will still present itself in the future. A future when today's $4 billion pricetag will surely double by then!

So essentially what you are saying is that you are so happy to have a Conservative in power you are willing to eat up any horse shit he serves you.

 

[OneCity]

I would agree that there were legitimate concerns with the LRT plan - e.g. too many stops, and created yet another orphan technology in Scarborough. However, the original Transit City has 3 LRT lines in Scarborough and at one point the main LRT was to be an extension of Eglinton into SCC and Malvern. Then it would have been a one-stop ride from SCC to mid-town and beyond.

The main problem I see with the subway plan is not the technology but that we are spending money to bury a line that could easily be above ground in parts of it and it doesn't address the main issue in Scarborough, which is that most people from there are not heading downtown but want to travel around Scarborough, which is a huge place. Sure greater development at SCC would be great but it wouldn't solve issues for the rest of the area at all. It wouldn't help students at Centennial or UTSC.

The city has done a piss-poor job on this file. It started under Miller, but continued under Ford and Tory. The most idiotic was the 1 stop express compromise. My point is that the province doesn't exactly have a stellar record either. The Liberals messed up transit planning under Metrolinx - projects delayed, canceled (e.g. Finch W LRT Keele - Yonge), put on hold (Sheppard E LRT). Stops added to curry favour for politicians and developer friends.

We will all stay tuned to see what Doug Ford does. He has the motivation to do something but will he play more games or actually man up with full funding to get shovels in the ground before the next election cycle? We shall see.

A Crosstown LRT across the Centre into Malvern LRT was a great option, even the BDL on that RT corridor with a bit of extra work was great and saw a bit of savings. But Keep in mind that was not part of Transit City and it was Rob Ford and McGuinty who tabled that plan to move forward. This should have been an easy resolution by council to agree, moreso when it was recommended by Metrolinx. Unfortunate to say the least.

Most residents travel locally on public transit because for the most part our local bus network is very good and the RT is a piece of infrastructure that has detracted many from even considering longer commutes for its issue with reliability, transfer location, and length . All three issues are very important and the City neglected one of them in their plans. Certainly there needs to be local improvements but not as a priority or an either or agaisnt connectivity, and improved rapid transit to the main jobs areas. We have a chicken and egg issue here and either of the above connected plans would have atleast helped. The 3 stop subway will certainly provide greater central connectivity for commuters further East and North East to finally connect to seamless and reliably. I firmly believe this alone will begin to change travel patterns and we can then address improving BRT or LRT local feeders into it in the future as required as part of a better overall network. These subway lines will be the backbone.

As well the connection of the Centre has some important economic and optical benefits for the area. It really didn't have to cost much more to do so whether using LRT or subway for the RT. The Sheppard E LRT was a very poorly connected line that would have really made cross City commuting anything but a joy. When upgrading for the future we need to build transit people will want to use, not inconvenience commuters in other ways greater then the currently are. Unless we could retrofit the stubway to LRT then a subway connection to SCC was what should have been proposed.

On the political end Doug has already done his what he set out to do at this stage and I fully believe he wants to strategically champion Toronto transit moreso to throw back at the opposition who would work with his brother. Its less about Doug for now and more important what the leader in 2022 chooses to do when theres main lines are nearing construction. Unlike the last couple of City plans residents will undoubtedly support these lines and they will all be funded with Sheppard as the next line to go into detailed design. If Doug wins next election he has set himself to look very good on transit long term and that will come at a time the deep cuts we see today will be far less frequent . The opposition who painted the Ford as a infrastructure failure are in a position to only make noise and hope he does fail. But as I said no matter what I dont think any party will overturn the Ontario line or SSE when its near construction no matter how much claim Ford will take.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Successive electoral defeat after defeat of politicians whom sided against subways is proof in the pudding of what the people actually want done in Scarborough.

That was because of financial scandals and incompetence. Transit was 3rd or 4th at best on the list of concerns.

 

[OneCity]

That was because of financial scandals and incompetence. Transit was 3rd or 4th at best on the list of concerns.

Its been the number one topic for local politicians in Scarborough and leaders at every level, stripe and riding for decades and growing. Many have it plastered on their election signs, Its really not even close. Absurd amount of tribal political distortion in this City.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

A Crosstown LRT across the Centre into Malvern LRT was a great option, even the BDL on that RT corridor with a bit of extra work was great and saw a bit of savings. But Keep in mind that was not part of Transit City and it was Rob Ford and McGuinty who tabled that plan to move forward. This should have been an easy resolution by council to agree, moreso when it was recommended by Metrolinx. Unfortunate to say the least.

Most residents travel locally on public transit because for the most part our local bus network is very good and the RT is a piece of infrastructure that has detracted many from even considering longer commutes for its issue with reliability, transfer location, and length . All three issues are very important and the City neglected one of them in their plans. Certainly there needs to be local improvements but not as a priority or an either or agaisnt connectivity, and improved rapid transit to the main jobs areas. We have a chicken and egg issue here and either of the above connected plans would have atleast helped. The 3 stop subway will certainly provide greater central connectivity for commuters further East and North East to finally connect to seamless and reliably. I firmly believe this alone will begin to change travel patterns and we can then address improving BRT or LRT local feeders into it in the future as required as part of a better overall network. These subway lines will be the backbone.

As well the connection of the Centre has some important economic and optical benefits for the area. It really didn't have to cost much more to do so whether using LRT or subway for the RT. The Sheppard E LRT was a very poorly connected line that would have really made cross City commuting anything but a joy. When upgrading for the future we need to build transit people will want to use, not inconvenience commuters in other ways greater then the currently are. Unless we could retrofit the stubway to LRT then a subway connection to SCC was what should have been proposed.

On the political end Doug has already done his what he set out to do at this stage and I fully believe he wants to strategically champion Toronto transit moreso to throw back at the opposition who would work with his brother. Its less about Doug for now and more important what the leader in 2022 chooses to do when theres main lines are nearing construction. Unlike the last couple of City plans residents will undoubtedly support these lines and they will all be funded with Sheppard as the next line to go into detailed design. If Doug wins next election he has set himself to look very good on transit long term and that will come at a time the deep cuts we see today will be far less frequent . The opposition who painted the Ford as a infrastructure failure are in a position to only make noise and hope he does fail. But as I said no matter what I dont think any party will overturn the Ontario line or SSE when its near construction no matter how much claim Ford will take.

But there was a connection via LRT as @BurlOak keeps saying. We are spending 5.5 billion to kill a transfer essentially. Sheppard East wasn't badly connected. It looks awful on the map and subway is already there. Let's just tell the truth here. I supported the Sheppard East Subway because it was inevitable. Reality is the demand isn't there on the corridor but the technology is already there, and there is no appetite to convert the existing portion. I just hope it goes to Sheppard West to a) provide a full connection from North York to Scarborough and b) provide access to Wilson yard.

 

[OneCity]

But there was a connection via LRT as @BurlOak keeps saying. We are spending 5.5 billion to kill a transfer essentially. Sheppard East wasn't badly connected. It looks awful on the map and subway is already there. Let's just tell the truth here. I supported the Sheppard East Subway because it was inevitable. Reality is the demand isn't there on the corridor but the technology is already there, and there is no appetite to convert the existing portion. I just hope it goes to Sheppard West to a) provide a full connection from North York to Scarborough and b) provide access to Wilson yard.

I agree the the RT extension would have been good if it was connected to the Crosstown seamlessly. Council refused to let Ford have the win and overturned it. It would have been great and so is the current 3 stop line. Whatever moves ahead will be a big improvement. Tough to feel sorry for the extra cost at this stage after a dysfunctional council tried to hack in LRT or build a one stop subway.

I dont agree on Sheppard as I see the opposite. It looks ok as a line on a map but in reality we would have added a transfer that doesn't exist. Does anyone seriously listen to residents and commuters who live here or even want people to like public transit? Seriously, we don't need more transfers introduced, moreso the absurd location that disconnect the Centre further. And its even more disrespectful not to connect the Centre when an existing line was already started and we are connected Vaughan and soon Richmond Hill. If we were forced to compromise to move forard on council id be OK with a 3 stop subway and full local LRT loop from the Crosstown to Sheppard. But heavily prefer the subways connecting the Centre as a complete backbone.

Good on Ford for taking the file away from the City for good for both planing and funding. It was well earned by a few Councillors who dislike this the most. I support Sheppard as a subway and I fully support any connected plan with stops the Province moves forward as the RT will have kicked the bucket.

 

[syn]

That was because of financial scandals and incompetence. Transit was 3rd or 4th at best on the list of concerns.

Really? You mean voters in London didn't make Scarborough getting a subway extension their main voting priority?

 

[syn]

2030 is just a decade from now. Hyperbole much? The Ford Government is indeed giving an "indefinite" completion date as of now, but not necessarily any indication that the SSE will not ever be built. Not at all. No one looking at the issue objectively would come to such a conclusion. How any one could expect the Province with no guarantee of assistance from the Feds or the City, to fund and build five different subway projects all simultaneously at the same time baffles the mind.

So my statement is still firmly correct. We are in a better position now because there are people in power now that are actually committal to seeing these projects through. Transit City started as a concept in 2007 and only one line got under construction during the previous gov't's tenure. No one wanted a 6 km tunnel with no intermediate stops as the City's take-it-or-leave-it proposed ultimatum to Scarborough. No one wants their through trip through Kennedy needlessly inconvenienced by the transfer point. These are the same half-baked solutions the Left came up with that doomed the Sheppard East LRT from the start. No one wants to commit in excess of $3 billion on retrofitting the SRT to a LRT corridor when the need to extend Bloor-Danforth further will still present itself in the future. A future when today's $4 billion pricetag will surely double by then!

Objectively speaking, "The Right" canceled a shovel ready rapid transit expansion in Scarborough nearly a decade ago and has absolutely nothing to show for it. Now we're being told it may be ready in another decade.

Riders on the Spadina Line routinely have to transfer to a streetcar. Transfers are a normal part of the transit experience.

I can understand not wanting an LRT on Sheppard, but ridership justifies it. If a subway is what people want then they should have to wait - there are far greater priorities on the system.