Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

[syn]

Am aware of the numbers and certainly not saying they're bad. Just not enough to justify a dedicated 6-car underground subway. And if we do extend as 6-car deep bore, a hurdle unto itself, what will end up happening? We'll still be leaving people short. And not just those across the city seeing lines shelved to pay for this expenditure. Even those along the general Sheppard corridor east of McCowan. Malvern area was planned to get subway-like transit 30yrs ago and not even the Fords promised anything there.

Frankly it's a bit silly to be comparing the core downtown area to Sheppard; ditto for comparing B/D, or Eglinton for that matter. Yes there may be problems with the future Crosstown LRT far down the line. But that could've been solved by going with high-floor vehicles and automation with 100m trains. Still wouldn't need anything beyond 100m, so what makes you think such "may not be enough" for Sheppard? Y+E or NYCC are most definitely not Manhattan, nor downtown Toronto for that matter. They're largely transfer points, with significant volumes likely intercepted by a line along Don Mills. I haven't seen even the slightest bit of evidence that something surpassing 20k pphpd would ever be warranted.

*If* in the year 3000 a 4-car, +20k pphpd capacity Line 4 extension turns out to be insufficient for Sheppard, is it a true roadblock? No, because we could build a parallel line somewhere else. Finch, Lawrence, Steeles...we'd have a millennium to plan for it so shouldn't be an issue. And those lines too could be 4-car.

You're right.

For some perspective, the Spadina Streetcar has comparable ridership to the Sheppard Line - and that's running parallel with the University Line about 800m or so away.

Let's not forget that the Eglinton LRT, with a direct connection to Kennedy, will likely draw riders from the Sheppard Line.

The Sheppard Line is being used as an example of what we should be continuing to do. It's really an cautionary tale, a perfect example of where not to build higher order urban transit and the consequences of investing limited public transit funds foolishly.

 

[zmonkey]

You're right.

For some perspective, the Spadina Streetcar has comparable ridership to the Sheppard Line - and that's running parallel with the University Line about 800m or so away.

Let's not forget that the Eglinton LRT, with a direct connection to Kennedy, will likely draw riders from the Sheppard Line.

The Sheppard Line is being used as an example of what we should be continuing to do. It's really an cautionary tale, a perfect example of where not to build higher order urban transit and the consequences of investing limited public transit funds foolishly.

Sheppard was built before it was needed, and built for political reasons on top of that (much like most of our recent transit announcements). The south end of sheppard will soon be nothing but condo's and those people will be taking this subway. The bigger issue is how limited the subway is, unless you need to go to line 1, downtown, most people will just drive. If Sheppard tracked the 401 it would help more, even if it was to STC to the east and to downsview in the west it would be substantially more practice for large population of the city.

It won't happen for decades as city as pressing needs above this, but if it was not a stub but a line, ridership would be much higher. Especially now with the line going to York, people in the North East of the city could easily take it to school/events at York.

 

[syn]

Sheppard was built before it was needed, and built for political reasons on top of that (much like most of our recent transit announcements). The south end of sheppard will soon be nothing but condo's and those people will be taking this subway. The bigger issue is how limited the subway is, unless you need to go to line 1, downtown, most people will just drive. If Sheppard tracked the 401 it would help more, even if it was to STC to the east and to downsview in the west it would be substantially more practice for large population of the city.

It won't happen for decades as city as pressing needs above this, but if it was not a stub but a line, ridership would be much higher. Especially now with the line going to York, people in the North East of the city could easily take it to school/events at York.

Sheppard is many, many condos and commercial projects away from being a corridor that requires a subway. An LRT could handle the ridership for probably a few lifetimes, at the very least.

There simply isn't enough density to justify a subway, even if it extended to Kennedy/STC.

Here is Sheppard & Victoria Park:

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.775...178.24533&pitch=0&thumbfov=100!7i13312!8i6656

Sheppard & Midland

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.785...4!1stnxkq0Z9zRAH6xioGsVbXg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Sheppard & McCowan

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.789...4!1s23RPjLfZ6mocRcTpdLQzmw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

It's unfortunate they didn't build an LRT in the first place - it would've made expansion a much easier decision. As it stands, building more costly subway infrastructure there doesn't make any sense.

 

[gweed123]

Sheppard is many, many condos and commercial projects away from being a corridor that requires a subway. An LRT could handle the ridership for probably a few lifetimes, at the very least.

There simply isn't enough density to justify a subway, even if it extended to Kennedy/STC.

Here is Sheppard & Victoria Park:

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.7753013,-79.3229173,3a,75y,299.1h,97.64t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sV1OyQdvD-9s06C8Vt89xnA!2e0!6s//geo1.ggpht.com/cbk?panoid=V1OyQdvD-9s06C8Vt89xnA&output=thumbnail&cb_client=maps_sv.tactile.gps&thumb=2&w=203&h=100&yaw=178.24533&pitch=0&thumbfov=100!7i13312!8i6656

Sheppard & Midland

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.785...4!1stnxkq0Z9zRAH6xioGsVbXg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Sheppard & McCowan

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.789...4!1s23RPjLfZ6mocRcTpdLQzmw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

It's unfortunate they didn't build an LRT in the first place - it would've made expansion a much easier decision. As it stands, building more costly subway infrastructure there doesn't make any sense.

To be fair, density around a stop isn't the be all and end all. You could drop Streetview at Danforth & Pape and make the same claim about density. The reality is most of the subway ridership is generated from connecting surface routes, and THAT is where a Sheppard subway extension would fail to justify.

 

[syn]

To be fair, density around a stop isn't the be all and end all. You could drop Streetview at Danforth & Pape and make the same claim about density. The reality is most of the subway ridership is generated from connecting surface routes, and THAT is where a Sheppard subway extension would fail to justify.

I agree - but I also think it fails on both counts.

There's a clear difference between Danforth & Pape (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.678...4!1sUCpkbowxphrraBph1TDNUQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) and Sheppard & Midland (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.7853171,-79.2785376,3a,75y,271.44h,85.67t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s733vNCJyWS8lYa4_R9xggw!2e0!6s//geo2.ggpht.com/cbk?panoid=733vNCJyWS8lYa4_R9xggw&output=thumbnail&cb_client=maps_sv.tactile.gps&thumb=2&w=203&h=100&yaw=139.92317&pitch=0&thumbfov=100!7i13312!8i6656) for example.

While both are lowrise, the built form around Danforth & Pape clearly demonstrates a much higher density environment in the context of a higher density urban area. By density, I mean both residential and commercial - the area is full of businesses, it's walkable, and most if not all are very accessible. You simply don't find that on Sheppard to any significant degree.

Aside from a few exceptions, feeder routes would definitely be an issue as the surrounding area is (aside from a few exceptions) very low density.

 

[vic]

To be fair, density around a stop isn't the be all and end all. You could drop Streetview at Danforth & Pape and make the same claim about density. The reality is most of the subway ridership is generated from connecting surface routes, and THAT is where a Sheppard subway extension would fail to justify.

Funny you should say that, as Streetview at Danforth and Pape initially dropped me in to this user-created image that shows much human density.
https://goo.gl/maps/Bcin72zTRas

 

[Hopkins123]

I agree - but I also think it fails on both counts.

There's a clear difference between Danforth & Pape (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.678...4!1sUCpkbowxphrraBph1TDNUQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) and Sheppard & Midland (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.7853171,-79.2785376,3a,75y,271.44h,85.67t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s733vNCJyWS8lYa4_R9xggw!2e0!6s//geo2.ggpht.com/cbk?panoid=733vNCJyWS8lYa4_R9xggw&output=thumbnail&cb_client=maps_sv.tactile.gps&thumb=2&w=203&h=100&yaw=139.92317&pitch=0&thumbfov=100!7i13312!8i6656) for example.

While both are lowrise, the built form around Danforth & Pape clearly demonstrates a much higher density environment in the context of a higher density urban area. By density, I mean both residential and commercial - the area is full of businesses, it's walkable, and most if not all are very accessible. You simply don't find that on Sheppard to any significant degree.

Aside from a few exceptions, feeder routes would definitely be an issue as the surrounding area is (aside from a few exceptions) very low density.

What a baseless comparison. No one is calling for a subway to Sheppard and Midland. The plan was to have the Sheppard Line dip southeasternly after Kennedy with a station in the axis of the Uxbridge and Seaton Subs (not far from the high density Village Green condominium community). Splitting services at Agincourt (subway west, buses east where the density truly starts to taper off) isn't that bad a suggestion at all.

 

[syn]

What a baseless comparison. No one is calling for a subway to Sheppard and Midland. The plan was to have the Sheppard Line dip southeasternly after Kennedy with a station in the axis of the Uxbridge and Seaton Subs (not far from the high density Village Green condominium community). Splitting services at Agincourt (subway west, buses east where the density truly starts to taper off) isn't that bad a suggestion at all.

Good thing it's such a high density, urban environment before Kennedy:

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.7811202,-79.2982097,3a,75y,149.62h,93.05t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1szcFFEP9ZiLRmytNRr8FIIA!2e0!6s//geo1.ggpht.com/cbk?panoid=zcFFEP9ZiLRmytNRr8FIIA&output=thumbnail&cb_client=maps_sv.tactile.gps&thumb=2&w=203&h=100&yaw=90.691&pitch=0&thumbfov=100!7i13312!8i6656

The density of the surrounding areas of the subway matter because that's where your riders are supposed to come from. There isn't enough residential nor employment density along the proposed corridor to justify a subway.


Calling Village Green Square "high density" is silly.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.7772585,-79.2854514,3a,75y,354.59h,95.16t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sJWA8zs3RG-DIDxWvVfxBDw!2e0!6s//geo2.ggpht.com/cbk?panoid=JWA8zs3RG-DIDxWvVfxBDw&output=thumbnail&cb_client=maps_sv.tactile.gps&thumb=2&w=203&h=100&yaw=110.20977&pitch=0&thumbfov=100!7i13312!8i6656

 

[11th]

Sheppard was built before it was needed, and built for political reasons on top of that (much like most of our recent transit announcements). The south end of sheppard will soon be nothing but condo's and those people will be taking this subway. The bigger issue is how limited the subway is, unless you need to go to line 1, downtown, most people will just drive. If Sheppard tracked the 401 it would help more, even if it was to STC to the east and to downsview in the west it would be substantially more practice for large population of the city.

It won't happen for decades as city as pressing needs above this, but if it was not a stub but a line, ridership would be much higher. Especially now with the line going to York, people in the North East of the city could easily take it to school/events at York.

It's supposed to be a trunk route, with more bus routes being fed into it (not just 11 and 51.) In it's present form, it is a stub and feeder line for Yonge. The ridership situation will not improve drastically because it is just the former 85E bus being ran in a tunnel.

 

[Leo_Chan]

Not really related to the Sheppard Subway Extension, but why do the announcements on Line 4 westbound say “Line 4 to Sheppard”? Wouldn’t it make more sense to be “Line 4 to Sheppard-Yonge”?

 

[W. K. Lis]

Not really related to the Sheppard Subway Extension, but why do the announcements on Line 4 westbound say “Line 4 to Sheppard”? Wouldn’t it make more sense to be “Line 4 to Yonge”?

Because "Yonge" is located at Bloor & Yonge.

Should at the very least be "Line 4 to Line 1 at Sheppard". "Line 4 to Sheppard Yonge" is acceptable.

 

[FW36]

My idea for transit in Scarborough

Red-downtown relief line
Orange-Eglington LRT
green-Bloor Danforth Subway
Purple-Sheppard Subway
Light Purple-Sheppard Ellesmere LRT

 

[Neutrino]

Came across this today:

Seems like the only waste would be a six stop Sheppard Subway Extension.

 

[Rainforest]

^ That might get her elected. Doesn't necessarily mean the subway gets funded.

 

[44 North]

My idea for transit in Scarborough

Red-downtown relief line
Orange-Eglington LRT
green-Bloor Danforth Subway
Purple-Sheppard Subway
Light Purple-Sheppard Ellesmere LRT

Yeah this is pretty neat, nice job. Like the more dynamic approach for RL north of Eglinton swooping NE toward L'Amoreaux after hitting Consumers Rd area direct. May very well score higher than staying on Don Mills. And your Sheppard RT solution using ex-SRT corridor is something I think should be looked at on an official level. Tho east of SC would continue on the planned Line 3 extension corridor toward Sheppard/Markham Rd considering there's an ROW reserved today for such thing and it hits Centennial direct.