Sheppard East LRT - Cancel or Continue?

[kEiThZ]

that is a pretty big generalization to make. most people i've talked to from that area want more transit, if fact, all people i've talked to and this includes people from the WCC. the only differing opinion i have encountered is whether to close the streets. some people actually want that to happen.

by the same token you can argue that those wanting a subway instead of LRT on sheppard east are demanding a subway in attempts to get the expansion project canned as well. not that i believe that.

We can agree to disagree. I don't think all the Westonites were as well intentioned as you've indicated. Many of their complaints focused just as much on the frequency and number of trains as their concerns about pollution. Hence the demand for a tunnel. Nobody here has the same concerns or focus. We aren't concerned about pollution from the LRTs (even if they used diesel). We aren't concerned about the frequency of LRTs (if anything I am worried it might be too low compared to the buses today).

If you don't believe that any of us are anti-transit, then what's the issue? I think our record shows (and our posts are there to prove it) that those of us in this group are sincerely concerned about transit and want decent services for the city. We just don't believe in a one size fits all solution.

Anyway, there's free speech here. People can call us what they like. We're working to put forward our view and create/further a debate. That can't be a bad thing.

 

[Dan416]

keithz I don't think we need to justify ourselves as being transit advocates just because we like subways. What kind of double-standard is that? We want widescale subway expanison on all lines plus new ones. If that's not transit advocacy, I don't know what is. It's these LRTistas that have somehow hoodwinked people into thinking that subway is overly expensive and their solution is the only solution and anything less (BRT) or more (subway) is anti-transit.

I do not not accept that view. That's why Save Our Subways exists.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

im just sayin'. sometimes it's like some republicans calling some democrats un-patriotic because they don't like the republican president but then those same republicans don't like the democratic president and don't see how this new position conflicts with their old argument.

anyways, back to the topic at hand " Sheppard East LRT - Cancel or Continue?". didn't mean to intertwine 2 separate projects.

 

[GenerationW]

72% to 28% -- is the newsdesk ready to wave the checkered flag? Because in election parlance, I think we've got ourselves a landslide winner.

 

[urbanboom]

^ That is a prime example of direct democracy:
"Would you like to have this huge infrastructure project?" Of course everyone will vote 'yes', just like everyone would vote 'no' on this question:
"Would like to increase taxes to fund it?". Eventually, something has to give. Keep this in mind.

There's a reason why direct democracy doesn't work and can't be confused with legitimate democracy that would happen in our municipal elections. Just ask California: propositions, anyone?

 

[kettal]

I wonder...

If the Toronto Sun put a poll on it's website: "Should taxes be raised? Yes or No"

Should it be obligatory for politicians to obey the result?



The moral: internet polls mean nothing. And yes, my opinion on this is consistent with internet polls whose outcomes I find favourable, and those I do not.

 

[rbt]

There's a reason why direct democracy doesn't work and can't be confused with legitimate democracy that would happen in our municipal elections.

Actually direct democracy does work in some areas, like Switzerland. A good portion of the population takes the decisions seriously enough to do a bit of research and consider the benefits/costs before voting for/against a proposition.

It certainly is rare though, and wouldn't work in any location with an "I want it now" attitude.

 

[Dan416]

nfitz's purpose in doing the poll was to see if there was still support for Sheppard continuing as a subway versus the planned LRT. It was predicated on the belief that everyone had been swayed by Transit City and its LRT plan and would take that over an uncertain subway. nfitz was wrong, the UrbanToronto population would prefer cancelling the Sheppard East LRT by a large margin.

As was previously mentioned, the SELRT BCA didn't even make mention of extending the Sheppard Subway beyond Don Mills, only to Downsview, and it was rated highly for both attracting ridership and development potential. I'd love to see how extending the subway in both directions to Downsview and Scarborough Centre would compare.

 

[GenerationW]

nfitz was wrong, the UrbanToronto population would prefer cancelling the Sheppard East LRT by a large margin.

Exactly. It's an internet poll -- nothing more, nothing less. And for the purposes of this thread, nfitz should accept the results and admit defeat.

 

[Fresh Start]

The first contract is a $1-million site preparation for the Agincourt grade separation, service roads, parking lots, etc. And that has started. I'll be the first to admit that it's certainly not past the point of no return yet.

That's it? You made it sound as if the situation for postponing the LRT plans was much more dire. You lamented on and on that CC and others here should consider our fight futile and instead accept a mediocre plan that won't generate the levels of ridership that a subway line could for not that much more money. Just remember: public apathy doesn't affect change, activism does!

I take it the grade separation and movement of utilities would be necesary in either event; so the possibility of a Sheppard subway extension becoming re-prioritized again with the election of a new mayor on the horizon is still likely. It's really McGuinty's pro-transit altruism that we have to thank for the funding windfall and Metrolinx at this point is just a figurehead for whatever misinformed scheme a city/region's transit commission presents to them. It's now up to the incumbent mayor and City Hall to listen to its constiuents' needs, observe where the greatest number of people want to go, and which corridor(s) will get them there at the shortest amount of time- that hopefully will have projects like SELRT critically reassessed.

Taxes also do not have to be raised full-force; there are multiple other ways in wich the city can raise enough of it's own funds to significantly finance subway construction.

 

[Second_in_pie]

As was previously mentioned, the SELRT BCA didn't even make mention of extending the Sheppard Subway beyond Don Mills, only to Downsview, and it was rated highly for both attracting ridership and development potential. I'd love to see how extending the subway in both directions to Downsview and Scarborough Centre would compare.

I agree, even a real, unbiased study of all modes and options would be a good start.
If it honestly concludes that keeping the Transfer at Don Mills and continuing with LRT is a good idea, I'll take their word for it. If they actually have evidence to back up the idea that the Don Mills transfer would be favourable other than "we're getting LRT so we shouldn't complain," I think that would probably be enough to sway me. If they have enough evidence to believe that what seems like a completely asinine transfer to LRT failing to create a proper subway corridor that would link two growth nodes is better than a full subway, then that'd definitely be enough for me.

Of course, it's a completely different thing to say that I don't think that study would be published with those results in a million years.

 

[Fresh Start]

Exactly. It's an internet poll -- nothing more, nothing less. And for the purposes of this thread, nfitz should accept the results and admit defeat.

Well if this is any indication of how the general public would be voting based on mayoral candidates' platforms, I'd say the case for cancelling or significantly augmenting the SELRT in favor of a subway to SCC is looking pretty good.

 

[nfitz]

Exactly. It's an internet poll -- nothing more, nothing less. And for the purposes of this thread, nfitz should accept the results and admit defeat.

You act like I haven't already commented on the results. I'm surprised at the result. I hadn't realised so many at Urban Toronto were so out of touch with reality.

It doesn't really matter how many transit followers here think the project will be stopped ... it will have absolutely no impact on the project itself. I can't even conceive the course of events that would stop a federal-provincial-city partnership at this stage.

It has no relation to whether the project is good, bad, justified, or should be something else. It's just politics.

 

[GenerationW]

^Your graciousness in admitting defeat just drips off the page.

As I suspect that those that oppose the LRT project are a (vocal) minority, I've put my money where my mouth is, and created a poll....

Time to introduce your money to your mouth.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

that is a pretty big generalization to make. most people i've talked to from that area want more transit, if fact, all people i've talked to and this includes people from the WCC. the only differing opinion i have encountered is whether to close the streets. some people actually want that to happen.

by the same token you can argue that those wanting a subway instead of LRT on sheppard east are demanding a subway in attempts to get the expansion project canned as well. not that i believe that.

I'll add. The SELRT will virtually eliminate any possability of expanding the Sheppard subway east. There's no way we're going to tear up a (relatively) new LRT line to put in a subway. Even if the LRT were to become overcrowded suggestions were to offer alternate parrallel route solutions rather than upgrade the LRT. UPRL on the other hand can be electrified at any time. One project (rail improvement and expansion) will not forever block the other (electrification) from happening.