Royson James: Get real transit plan

[Antiloop33rpm]

I think with only a few exceptions, we should be wrapping up the subway era, at least for the short term.

Logical. Rational. I would suggest you go into politics or policy and spread the word but there seems to be a problem with many agencies rejecting intelligent people.

We often overlook one of the best options for Toronto: Urban regional rail.

Again, couldn't agree more. This is why seeing GO buy the set of Talents from Ottawa is an exciting plan since it would be a first step in experimenting with more frequent services and really changing how GO serves the region.

The big problem with a regional rail system is that while it would probably bring the biggest benefits for the GTA of most transit options, it is also the biggest challenge. I really have no doubt it would be worth the undertaking but I don't see the idea being one that will be able to gain support in the court of public opinion for another few years at least.

 

[dashingdan]

While everyone would love subways everywhere, they're just increasingly cost-prohibitive. I don't think anyone would call a subway to Hwy 7 & Jane St cost-effective. Or any of the often crazy dreams come up with on boards like this from time to time.

Unfortunately politicians are stuck on subways. GO Transit should really be doing more to curb traffic congestion. Wasn't that it's whole raison d'etre?

 

[rbtaylor]

Max speed of 80? Then avg speed couldn't be much more than 50 or 60 kph even with stations that are well-spaced.

TTC regularly reports the expected average speed and other details for each route, individually, for any given service quarter.

www.toronto.ca/ttc/pdf/se..._07_30.pdf

Average speeds for subway are about 30kph. This includes dwell time at stations, and all other regularly scheduled delays.

Streetcars seem to average about 15 to 20kph.

Airport rocket is the fastest thing in the fleet -- 42kph.

Most other day time bus routes are about 15 to 20kph -- same as streetcars.

 

[afransen TO]

30 kph is not very good at all! Then again, I doubt a car could do much better following the route of a subway line during the day. Thanks for the info.

 

[rbtaylor]

I doubt a car could do much better following the route of a subway line during the day.

It has been timed from Finch to City Hall. They're about the same driving or by subway including parking and walking/waiting time.

Anyway, 30kph is tons if you live within 5 to 10km of where you work, etc.

 

[unimaginative2]

I think with only a few exceptions, we should be wrapping up the subway era, at least for the short term.

Why? Our subway network is vastly smaller than that in every non-American developed-world city our size.

Too many people have bought the propaganda deliberately designed to lower our expectations.

 

[Brighter Hell]

^True, but a subway from Pickering to Mississauga is crazy - urban regional rail is the answer for that type of service. Subways are needed for central, dense areas with shorter trips and more frequent stops. And Toronto has lots of places like that that aren't near a subway line.

 

[Antiloop33rpm]

Why? Our subway network is vastly smaller than that in every non-American developed-world city our size.

So what? How are subways which cost at the very least $100 million dollars per kilometer the best solution for serving moderate to low density locations?

Too many people have bought the propaganda deliberately designed to lower our expectations.

It is not lowering expectations at all. It is being realistic about what are the todays most important transportation needs and how best to serve them. Personally I dont find 2.1 billion dollar subway extensions to Vaughan all that impressive, and in that case, it even seems rather silly and waste of money. I would see taking that 2.1 billion and giving it too GO to create 3 or 4 dedicated regional rail lines with good frequency as being a far better choice and equally as 'flashy' as subways. I don't know, maybe its just a matter of personal preference.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Give GO a few billion to beef up service for outer/905 areas and then let subway construction be focused on more central areas - there's more than enough justifiable lines and extensions within the 416 to keep the TTC and the city busy for decades.

"A more realistic driving time from end to end of the route by car is 45 mins - 1 h. I think the subway would be competitive, but only if you lived on the line or very near."

I wasn't talking about a TTC trip from Pickering to Mississauga - that would take 2 hours. Taking, say, a Durham bus to the station, then the subway to somewhere in Scarborough or North York, then a bus/walk to your destination would invariably take three times as long as driving. As you say, only people that both live right at the subway station and are going somewhere right at another subway station will get the most out of it. Cars are often competitive when comparing station to station trips, but the vast majority of people travel from one random door to another, not from one station to another, and it's these door-to-door trips that are almost universally faster by car.

 

[Mark Dowling]

Blame the Ontario Minister of Finance - he's running a subway line into Vaughan where people want to go downtown when it's the GO line that needs upgrading. Now everyone will want subway or nothing. I thought there was some hope of it being "forgotten" until Duncan was forced back to Energy when the Royal Group matter went away.

The problem is that GO feeds into Union which is both a capacity and destination problem. Finding a way to lever CP out of the cross-town line so that GO stations can exist at Rosedale but even better at Dupont (Yonge is pretty congested as is) so that people who want to get GO to the northern core can avoid Union should be a priority.

Electrification of GO Lakeshore for faster acceleration and lower noise should also be considered soon - this is the point greenies forget when opposing new power stations, electric transit - subway, streetcar and electric loco - is cleaner but needs juice. An electric Lakeshore East would also be a useful first step in electrifying VIA on the Quebec-Windsor, perhaps just for terminating Montreal-Toronto runs.

The subway should stop at Steeles, period. The EA is done or pretty much done. An LRT "fan" feeding it for York U traffic but also making connections to a beefed up GO should be the goal, along with closing the gap between Yonge-Sheppard and Downsview (although that could involve reconfiguring the existing line for LRT rather than subway cars).

But Vaughan+subway sounds so good when you're trying to stop the Tories winning 416-border MPP seats... and meanwhile the clock keeps ticking on SRT and the Sorbara Group keeps building that lovely low density at York U.

 

[simply Dan]

Electrification of GO Lakeshore for faster acceleration and lower noise should also be considered soon

Completely agree. It has always been amazing to me that nothing in the GTA has ever been electrified in the past - we must be one of the few large urban megalopolises in the Western world that relies solely on old diesel technology for regional transportation.

 

[ahrvojic]

Not that I support a cross-GTA subway, but are we really putting Mississauga and Pickering on the same footing now? We have a whole thread discussing why SCC should be razed and yet somehow extending the B-D there makes complete sense, while Mississauga only merits "improved" GO service and an electrified Milton line diversion that I still don't understand given that GO doesn't own the tracks in the first place and all of the MCC section would have to be underground anyway.

I can see more frequent GO service along Lakeshore for southern Mississauga and beyond, and I'm all for electrification, but beefing up GO isn't going to cut it alone unless that means completely new tracks and tunnels--and at that point we're talking a new LRT/subway network, aren't we?

For now, I'm still convinced that a better rapid transit start as far as Mississauga is concerned would be an extension of B-D to Square One (come on, it's not that far away and it's the logical western terminus) plus Hurontario and Dundas MT LRT lines.

A cross-town express GO LRT line to MCC from the northeast (via the airport?) would be fantastic as well, but ultimately, as others have mentioned here, we'll have to solve the CN/CP problem before that'll get anywhere.

We also have to stop basing our transit plans on area codes. Everyone, from downtown to the inner and outer suburbs, is proud of this city (there is effectively only one) and I'd say most of the intra-GTA bickering seems to come from undereducated and underqualified municipal politicians.

 

[Brighter Hell]

^An urban regional rail system (hybrid betweeh GO and local transit) would serve MCC a lot better than a subway extension. It would be a faster ride downtown, for one thing.

 

[Antiloop33rpm]

I can see more frequent GO service along Lakeshore for southern Mississauga and beyond, and I'm all for electrification, but beefing up GO isn't going to cut it alone unless that means completely new tracks and tunnels--and at that point we're talking a new LRT/subway network, aren't we?

Not really. Most LRT/subway networks are limited in the kind of transit options they can provide. Upgrading GO/VIA corridors will provide far greater flexibilty. You can run everything from small sets of regional trains that are not much bigger than an LRT vehicle (such as the Bombardier Talent), to GO bi levels or intercity trains. Once you start getting 15km or more from the core, then regional rail starts making more and more sense and when you have rail corridors that can allow 20 minute frequency for local service as well accomodating commuter and intercity needs on trains that may reach a dozen cars or more, it really seems like the best investment.

It would be a faster ride downtown, for one thing.

If you had GO offering service to Union every 20 minutes on a dedicated rail corridor from MCC this would easily be quicker than trying to make the same trip on a subway. Even if you had to wait the full 20 minutes for a train the trip itself would take maybe 10 minutes meaning 30 minutes is likely the longest time it would take. Im not sure about others, but I would rather wait around a train station for even 15 or 20 minutes and then have a quick trip downtown than spend a few minutes waiting for a subway, but having to spend 30 minutes or more actually in transit.

The vehicle below, used for regional and commuter services in Germany, is a good example of the kind of train that would work well serving places such as Mississauga or Vaughan. It is of a class that it can run on heavy rail track, but can offer fast, frequent service from the suburbs to the the downtown core. So when you invest in the GO infrastructure and begin to create dedicated and maybe even electrified corridors you really open up a whole range of options that would make much more sense when you are serving the 416 fringes and into the 905.

 

[adma]

Wow. I want those. The colour's a throwback to the original Gloucester cars on the subway--sorta