Rossi promises traffic tunnel

[nfitz]

How much would Transit City cost if all of its plans are fully realized (assumed that no changes were made as it did by metrolinx/provincial gov.t)? +$40Bil?

Yikes, no where near. The expensive pieces are the tunnels, and most of that is the section of Eglinton that's already funded. The Don Mills and Jane LRT's would come in about 1.3 billion each. Scarborough-Malvern is about $900 million, and Lakeshore west .... that's a tough one ... $1-billion maybe? So that's an extra $4.5 billion for the unfunded lines ... in current dollars. There's also about $770 million for Phase 2 of Eglinton (Jane to Pearson), $100 million for phase 2 of Sheppard East (Conlins to Meadowvale), and $460 million for Phase 2 of Finch (Keele to Yonge) so that's another $1.3 billion. The Metrloinx funded portion is (in 2010-2020 of spending rather than current dollars) $1.1 billion for Sheppard, $1.3 billion for Finch and $6.1 billion for Eglinton.

So that all adds up to $14.3 billion for 124 km of LRT. About 18 km will be in tunnel and the other 106 km will be on the surface. What's interesting (and these are rough numbers with some dollars inflated to year, and some not) it's coming in at about $7 billion for the 18 km of tunnel and $7.3 billion for the 106 km of surface LRT.

So with 14 km out of 18 km of the tunnels in the first portion of Metrolinx's plan, much of the heavy lifting will be done.

I've left the fully funded $2.5 billion SRT upgrade and extension out of the numbers, it's tough to break down, and wasn't part of the original Transit City plan (just think though, instead of funding this, we could have built the entire Don Mills and Jane lines instead!).

 

[nfitz]

In Boston the tunnel was built beneath an existing elevated freeway and right next to the ocean. Much more expensive to do that.

And we are building a tunnel underneath an existing subway line, and in the old glacial lakefront sands. There are unfortunately more similarities to Boston than Brisbane.

 

[nfitz]

The Rossi cost estimate is, by my guess, intentionally low.

However, there's low, and there's so comically low that he's laughed off the stage.

He's estimated that the tunnel will not cost much more per km, than the surface section of the Sheppard LRT in suburban Scarborough. And much less than a much smaller subway tunnel under Eglinton. He insults our intelligence with his numbers. If he had at least come out with $500-million per kilometre instead of $105-million per kilometre, he could be taken half-seriously - it's still hugely low, but not so absurd that you question the very sanity of whoever put the numbers together.

 

[ssiguy2]

Come on let's knock off this $30 billion estimate. Even Toronto could manage a 1km freeway tunnel for under a billion but that's not the point.
Had there been rumours about this or is this thing just something right out of the blue?
The thing that really scares me about this is that Smitherman may want it also. You have no idea what he is going to come up with until the next poll comes out. You might hate Ford but no one can say they didn't know where he stood on an issue. Pantelone is the same but Smiterman is just a shot in the dark because he seems to have no real convictions about anything and certainly not transportation planning or taxes.
People think Smitherman is a "moderate" as opposed to right wing Ford or left wing Pantelone but nothing could be further than the truth. He's no moderate he's indecicive. He stands for nothing hoping that his ineptitudes will be viewed as consensus building. There are 2 main issues in this election...............city spending/taxes and transit and his views on both incomphrehensible because he doesn't have any.
I feel sorry for you because no matter who get's in Toronto will be the loser.

 

[nfitz]

As far as I know, this is completely out of the blue. Even the recent highway advocacy folks didn't seem to be pushing the Spadina (other than to extend it to St. Clair and terminate it properly there), but rather the Black Creek Expressway to the Gardiner (mostly down the Georgetown GO line) and the expressway from the DVP to the 401 in Scarborough along the power lines.

I don't think I could have been more stunned when I heard he had announced it.

 

[Junction416]

The $30 billion number is way to high. Its taken from the big dig project, a project way more complex then what Rossi is proposing. That project included a tunneled expressway, a tunnel under a river, a new bridge and tearing down an old elevated expressway.

But in the end it doesn't matter what it costs because its a project that has no merit what so ever. A new tunnel downtown will mean more traffic on the allen and more traffic downtown, exactly the opposite of what a transportation plan should achieve. Never mind that it does nothing to solve the cities biggest transportation problems which are a public transit system at capacity and suffering from decades of neglect while trying to manage record ridership and neighbourhoods that remain severely under served by rapid-transit.

 

[hbl33]

Come on let's knock off this $30 billion estimate. Even Toronto could manage a 1km freeway tunnel for under a billion but that's not the point.

I don't know if you can answer this, but how can you explain that TO is able to manage a 1km of 6-lane freeway tunnel for under a billion? A tunnel value itself, definitely but with EA, contractors and other costs added in construction does this mean that Toronto can pay for the value of the infrastructure ITSELF? And by what means?

Had there been rumours about this or is this thing just something right out of the blue?

Rumours or not, every construction in Ontario must be sounding over-extorbitant, if using your logic.

People think Smitherman is a "moderate" as opposed to right wing Ford or left wing Pantelone but nothing could be further than the truth. He's no moderate he's indecicive. He stands for nothing hoping that his ineptitudes will be viewed as consensus building. There are 2 main issues in this election...............city spending/taxes and transit and his views on both incomphrehensible because he doesn't have any.

Not that he'd care about city expenses or income, but to secure his Liberal bastion throughout Ontario. Same goes for Rob Ford and Pantless Joe. Rossi is showing true colours, meaning he's no different from other three above.

I feel sorry for you because no matter who get's in Toronto will be the loser.

Will you come up with any better reasonable plan for better transportation?
Honestly, I'll leave that to you, but saying Ford is a saviour for T.O. ...

 

[junctionist]

The idea would require an idiotic waste of money that urban Torontonians haven't even had the time to point out that the new highway extension to the Gardiner will only further car culture, dumping even more cars on downtown streets, require lots of buildings to be demolished for ramps, and so many more parking lots.

 

[nfitz]

The $30 billion number is way to high. Its taken from the big dig project, a project way more complex then what Rossi is proposing. That project included a tunneled expressway, a tunnel under a river, a new bridge and tearing down an old elevated expressway.

It's different; none of the tunnels in Boston were as long as what is being proposed here. Yes, the one here is probably simpler (though I'd really love to see a pre-feasibility study of tunelling an expressway under a subway down the ravine south of Eglinton without having to take any houses) ... but the big dig would cost $40 billion done in Toronto today (assuming our city and geology were identical to Boston). $30 billion isn't an unreasonable ball-park number.

It might get cheaper if Rossi were to compromise and take some of the houses, particularly along Everden Road. On the other hand, perhaps they could launch the TBMs further north ...

 

[Epi]

When I read about this yesterday, all I could think was... not even the most crazy forumers have ever come up with a plan this crazy, this stupid, and this unrealistic. Quite an achievement.

 

[GenerationW]

The 60s were a defining decade for Toronto. We experienced massive growth in the subway system, major development of the regional highway system, and the inception of GO transit. If the next decade saw the same investment as in the 60s in the same respective areas, Toronto would be a much better city by 2020!

We did okay in the 70's considering the rampant inflation of that decade, and then the early 80's was a rough period due to a pretty deep recession. But it's too bad Bill Davis didn't stay in power for another few years because I think we'd be a lot further ahead today.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

The 60s were a defining decade for Toronto. We experienced massive growth in the subway system, major development of the regional highway system, and the inception of GO transit. If the next decade saw the same investment as in the 60s in the same respective areas, Toronto would be a much better city by 2020!

by 60's era i was referring specifically to the north american mentality of ploughing through cities with highway expansion, tearing down city blocks to build parking lots, etc. we had some good like you mentioned but we had to take it with the bad.

 

[Mulder]

Cost issues aside, it still does nothing to help improve traffic overall in the GTA.

The evening rush hour, it would create even more congestion Allen -> 400. and Allen -> 404.

A better solution would be Black Creek. As suggested, but just making proper interchanges at Lawerence, Thretheway Drive, and Eglinton. Keeping the terminus at Weston for now. With the possibility of a 3rd lane right at Lawerance. This would greatly improve traffic flow on that road. And be a much more cost effective solution

 

[Redroom Studios]

I just couldnt believe Rossi said this with a straight face at the press conference... this is seriously the best thing he could come up with? what a disappointing crop of candidates this is for a city experiencing such burgeoning growth and cultural rennaissance!

 

[W. K. Lis]

I would be assuming that Rossi would pay for his tunnel using tolls.

The Windsor - Detroit tunnel (single lane each way, built by 1930) has tolls of $4.50 CDN Windsor to Detroit and $4.75 Detroit to Windsor, at a length of 1,573 m. That's today's dollars. Estimates of Rossi's tunnel is 7 to 8 km, or 5 times the length. Do your own calculations.

Make sure your expense account is in order before you use it.