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Roncesvalles Reconstruction
- Thread starter allabootmatt
- Start date
W. K. Lis
Superstar
The 504 streetcars are using the completed streetcar tracks on Roncesvalles. The sidewalks and parking laybys are not yet completed.
What completely went unnoticed by me until today (New Year's Eve) was how much more silent the streetcars are now with the new tracks. The new low-floor streetcars will be even quieter with their bogie skirts to cut down even more noise.
Last edited:
Dan416
Senior Member
I remember this being one of the advantages to the streetcar track rebuilds that they did on College and other streetcar tracks in the recent past.
nfitz
Superstar
Absolutely ... I used to live right on Gerrard when they did part of the rebuild there. Used to feel the vibration of the streetcar in the house. When I was in the shower, I could count how many streetcars passed while I was in there - the bathtub legs must have amplified the vibration somehow. However after the rebuild I couldn't feel it anymore - and it was quieter. In terms of noise, the Coxwell bus (which was further away) made more noise, trying to climb the hill.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
For those who don't know what a bogie skirt is, it is a covering of over the bogies for trams, streetcars, or light rail vehicles. It helps reduce the noise coming from the bogies.
The current fleet does not have skirts over their bogies.
The current fleet does not have skirts over their bogies.
DSC
Superstar
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Yes, when they re-laid the tracks on King downtown about 7 years ago the reduction in noise and vibration was amazing. The TTC now pays much more attention (and money!) to laying the tracks so they will be quieter, vibrate less and last longer. The next time the rails need to be replaced they will not dig into the lowest "foundation" level of concrete beneath them so they should also be faster to replace. (In the last decade almost all track has been replaced (Church, St Clair, Parliament and Ronceys being done recently). Apart from some small sections elsewhere and Queen's Quay West- which is connected to the new street layout - I think that only the fairly short lengths of track on Adelaide, Richmond, Wellington, York and Victoria now need to be done.
catcher_of_cats
Active Member
Back to Roncy, I have noticed that drivers continually smash into the caution signs at the new platforms and there are always some moron who is willing to risk lift and limb to pass in places that they shouldn't, endangering themselves, their fellow drivers, and the pedestrians around them. Hopefully after one full year of operation, and completion, through drivers will avoid this strip.
Platform 27
Active Member
The really old stuff on Richmond etc. date back to the pre-1960s streetcar heyday, and while loud, they're hardly the worst offenders---the absolute worst are the tracks laid when the TTC/city got back into the tracklaying business in the 80s and 90s without the slightest degree of institutional memory on how to do it properly. The term "thunder tracks" crops up on Steve Munro's blog--dunno if it's his term or someone else's--for that generation, and not only were they louder but they were done so sloppily that they've only lasted 25-ish years before the elements and continuous vibration have cracked and buckled the paving into severe disrepair.
Public enemy number one has to be the tracks from the first phase of Waterfront West: south on Spadina below King, across the GO tracks, then east along Queen's Quay. If you stand at CityPlace today when a GO train is going by at the same time as a streetcar is crossing the bridge, it's incredible how much more noise the one-car electrically-powered CLRV kicks up compared to the 12-car diesel train.
The current Queen's Quay situation occasionally gets dragged into the Transit City debates precisely because we only got 25 years out of surface light rail infrastructure before it's become very obviously due for a substantial rebuild, with some subway proponents claiming Transit City would similarly have a 25-year-long capital lifespan compared to something significantly longer by going underground. That would certainly be true if the TTC circa 1985 were to build it (ironically enough, back when Steve et al were asking them to) but one feather that has to be put in the TTC's cap is they did---after great time and expense---eventually figure out how to lay streetcar tracks properly. The folks on Roncy will benefit greatly from this.
StIdes
Active Member
lol who called the epic fail on the bumpouts before they were built?
^^^This guy
Like I said before
-less parking
-harder for snow plows
-extra cost
-harder for car traffic to pass slow moving streetcars
-more dangerous as seen with the smashed caution signs already
Why does the city/ttc continue to build retarded structures that create traffic flow problems. I dont know what's worse planning Roncesvalles or the stretch of St. Clair ave W between Old Weston rd and Keele.
^^^This guy
Like I said before
-less parking
-harder for snow plows
-extra cost
-harder for car traffic to pass slow moving streetcars
-more dangerous as seen with the smashed caution signs already
Why does the city/ttc continue to build retarded structures that create traffic flow problems. I dont know what's worse planning Roncesvalles or the stretch of St. Clair ave W between Old Weston rd and Keele.
rbt
Senior Member
Seriously? You prefer a smashed caution sign over a smashed pedestrian?
I would say significantly safer. These idiots can learn their mistake on a piece of metal instead of my legs.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
Couldn't pass the streetcars before the construction and I couldn't pass the buses during the contruction either. And I found that riding the streetcars was faster than the buses.
current
Active Member
National Post article:
Roncesvalles’ Still-Unfinished Rebuilding Strains Neighbourhood
Daniel Bitonti January 3, 2011 – 7:34 am
Behind the counter at Aris Place, a diner near the corner of Roncesvalles and Fermanagh avenues where a group of men in their 70s sit in the back at tables that look nearly as old, John Athanselos uses a spatula to check eggs, bacon and potatoes sizzling on a griddle.
Every so often, he waves the spatula in frustration at the streetcar stop directly outside his front window where, after a year-and-a-half of construction that clogged Roncesvalles and squeezed the small businesses that line it, streetcars finally began running again on Dec. 19.
In August 2009, the city began remaking the street to replace water and sewage pipes that were nearly a century old, as well as the TTC tracks that were set to expire in the next few years. Construction was scheduled to finish in early December 2010, although it hasn’t worked out that way.
Many of the small business owners say they’re not happy with how Roncesvalles turned out. Long stretches have now been reduced to one lane each way, as new streetcar stops have landings that jut out onto the roadway, allowing riders to get on and off without having to step in front of traffic.
Mr. Athanaselos’s son, Louis, says five or six parking spots have been lost on their block alone due to sidewalk expansion.
“We’re lucky because we’ve been here for so long, but what about other businesses? They’re going to be hurt by this,†he said.
“It’s slowed down traffic completely along this street. There was a delivery truck parked and the streetcar was stuck there and cars were forced to go around.â€
Stretches of the road with two lanes have been narrowed. When the TTC conducted trial runs earlier in the month, there were several reports that streetcars could not get passed cars parked against the curb.
Shannon Doyle, who also owns a specialty foods store on the street, saw a streetcar delayed for several minutes in front of her store last week.
“I really didn’t know what was going on,†she said. “We’ll have to wait and see what happens. All of this … it better pay off.â€
TTC spokesman Brad Ross admits some stretches along Roncesvalles are particularly narrow, but insisted TTC standards have been met. The fact that there are currently no signs indicating where people can and can’t park may also have led to delays, he said.
“There will be signage, that’s coming,†he said. “There is no doubt about it that it’s narrow and we’ll have to examine it and see how it proceeds when there is signage.â€
The story of Roncesvalles isn’t new to Toronto. Residents and business owners on St. Clair Avenue dealt with years of construction and frustration that came to symbolize streetcar construction gone wrong.
The St. Clair streetcar right-of-way project was supposed to take three years at a cost of $48-million to improve 6.8 km of track.
The project ended up taking five years, and ballooning to $105-million. In March, a group of businesses and landlords filed a $100-million lawsuit against the city, the province and the TTC. The claim alleged there was a “complete breakdown†in the St. Clair project’s co-ordination, leading to substantial delays that negatively affected local businesses. In a report later commissioned by the TTC, it was determined there were clear shortcomings with the project, including the lack of centralized project management.
The whole process on Roncesvalles will end up costing the city $9.2-million, and construction continues.
The sidewalks north of Howard Park Avenue and south of Fern Street, for example, have yet to see expansion. The delays have been mostly caused by the discovery of an Enbridge gas main near Geoffrey Street that needed to be moved. Workers were forced to put a temporary cover on the street for the winter.
“That’s what I’m ticked off about. It was supposed to be entirely done on Dec. 3.†said Len McAuley, Roncesvalles Village BIA board member and owner of Pollocks Home Hardware.
He estimates he has lost 25% to 30% of business. “And that was for two years. Now we hear it’s going into a third year.â€
Some Roncesvalles residents are just thankful their street is back to some semblance of normalcy.
“There was just so much construction and delays. Even if you weren’t driving,†said Alex Denik, who lives in the area. “Now we finally have quicker access to Queen Street. It was just a hassle.â€
Karen Jones said it’s a big relief that construction is nearly completed. She said she thinks the process actually “pulled the community together.
“There has been a big effort from the business association and people in the schools encouraging us to do our Christmas shopping here,†Ms. Jones said. “We try now to do all our shopping down here and we weren’t so thoughtful about that before.â€
But Lorraine Hawley, owner of Mabel’s Bakery and Specialty Foods, opened her business just before construction started. She believes she is losing business, particularly the after-work crowd, due to fewer parking spaces.
“It’s just hard to stop and pop in quickly because there’s no space to park,†she said. “People aren’t going to go home, park and then walk thee or four blocks once they’re home. There is a concern here.â€
http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/0...building-strains-neighbourhood/#ixzz1A0ckLFZO
Roncesvalles’ Still-Unfinished Rebuilding Strains Neighbourhood
Daniel Bitonti January 3, 2011 – 7:34 am
Behind the counter at Aris Place, a diner near the corner of Roncesvalles and Fermanagh avenues where a group of men in their 70s sit in the back at tables that look nearly as old, John Athanselos uses a spatula to check eggs, bacon and potatoes sizzling on a griddle.
Every so often, he waves the spatula in frustration at the streetcar stop directly outside his front window where, after a year-and-a-half of construction that clogged Roncesvalles and squeezed the small businesses that line it, streetcars finally began running again on Dec. 19.
In August 2009, the city began remaking the street to replace water and sewage pipes that were nearly a century old, as well as the TTC tracks that were set to expire in the next few years. Construction was scheduled to finish in early December 2010, although it hasn’t worked out that way.
Many of the small business owners say they’re not happy with how Roncesvalles turned out. Long stretches have now been reduced to one lane each way, as new streetcar stops have landings that jut out onto the roadway, allowing riders to get on and off without having to step in front of traffic.
Mr. Athanaselos’s son, Louis, says five or six parking spots have been lost on their block alone due to sidewalk expansion.
“We’re lucky because we’ve been here for so long, but what about other businesses? They’re going to be hurt by this,†he said.
“It’s slowed down traffic completely along this street. There was a delivery truck parked and the streetcar was stuck there and cars were forced to go around.â€
Stretches of the road with two lanes have been narrowed. When the TTC conducted trial runs earlier in the month, there were several reports that streetcars could not get passed cars parked against the curb.
Shannon Doyle, who also owns a specialty foods store on the street, saw a streetcar delayed for several minutes in front of her store last week.
“I really didn’t know what was going on,†she said. “We’ll have to wait and see what happens. All of this … it better pay off.â€
TTC spokesman Brad Ross admits some stretches along Roncesvalles are particularly narrow, but insisted TTC standards have been met. The fact that there are currently no signs indicating where people can and can’t park may also have led to delays, he said.
“There will be signage, that’s coming,†he said. “There is no doubt about it that it’s narrow and we’ll have to examine it and see how it proceeds when there is signage.â€
The story of Roncesvalles isn’t new to Toronto. Residents and business owners on St. Clair Avenue dealt with years of construction and frustration that came to symbolize streetcar construction gone wrong.
The St. Clair streetcar right-of-way project was supposed to take three years at a cost of $48-million to improve 6.8 km of track.
The project ended up taking five years, and ballooning to $105-million. In March, a group of businesses and landlords filed a $100-million lawsuit against the city, the province and the TTC. The claim alleged there was a “complete breakdown†in the St. Clair project’s co-ordination, leading to substantial delays that negatively affected local businesses. In a report later commissioned by the TTC, it was determined there were clear shortcomings with the project, including the lack of centralized project management.
The whole process on Roncesvalles will end up costing the city $9.2-million, and construction continues.
The sidewalks north of Howard Park Avenue and south of Fern Street, for example, have yet to see expansion. The delays have been mostly caused by the discovery of an Enbridge gas main near Geoffrey Street that needed to be moved. Workers were forced to put a temporary cover on the street for the winter.
“That’s what I’m ticked off about. It was supposed to be entirely done on Dec. 3.†said Len McAuley, Roncesvalles Village BIA board member and owner of Pollocks Home Hardware.
He estimates he has lost 25% to 30% of business. “And that was for two years. Now we hear it’s going into a third year.â€
Some Roncesvalles residents are just thankful their street is back to some semblance of normalcy.
“There was just so much construction and delays. Even if you weren’t driving,†said Alex Denik, who lives in the area. “Now we finally have quicker access to Queen Street. It was just a hassle.â€
Karen Jones said it’s a big relief that construction is nearly completed. She said she thinks the process actually “pulled the community together.
“There has been a big effort from the business association and people in the schools encouraging us to do our Christmas shopping here,†Ms. Jones said. “We try now to do all our shopping down here and we weren’t so thoughtful about that before.â€
But Lorraine Hawley, owner of Mabel’s Bakery and Specialty Foods, opened her business just before construction started. She believes she is losing business, particularly the after-work crowd, due to fewer parking spaces.
“It’s just hard to stop and pop in quickly because there’s no space to park,†she said. “People aren’t going to go home, park and then walk thee or four blocks once they’re home. There is a concern here.â€
http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/0...building-strains-neighbourhood/#ixzz1A0ckLFZO
GenerationW
Senior Member
"When the TTC conducted trial runs earlier in the month, there were several reports that streetcars could not get passed cars parked against the curb."
Inexcusable if true.
"The delays have been mostly caused by the discovery of an Enbridge gas main near Geoffrey Street that needed to be moved."
How does an Enbridge gas main just get discovered?
Inexcusable if true.
"The delays have been mostly caused by the discovery of an Enbridge gas main near Geoffrey Street that needed to be moved."
How does an Enbridge gas main just get discovered?
GraphicMatt
Looking forward to a FRESH START for Toronto
I find it really distasteful that newspapers are now starting their banal horrors-of-construction articles with accounts of 70-year-old men eating breakfast (and shaking spatulas angrily!).
reaperexpress
Senior Member
Oh no! Riders not having to step into traffic?! Reducing the street to 1 lane from 1 lane? Outrageous.
They conveniently forgot to mention that construction on St. Clair was delayed by a NIMBY group. That's somewhat relevant to this story.
Did it occur to her that maybe people were driven away by the entire street being in chaos due to construction?
It's evident that she is new to urban areas because she doesn't believe that people will walk three blocks from their house to a store.