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Roncesvalles Reconstruction

None of this would even matter if they built the Downtown Relief subway via Queen and Wellington Streets. Folk at Queen and Roncesvalles would be at Bay Street in under 10 minutes. It's counterintuitive that someone from Long Branch would want to go to Dundas West when the 110 and 123 can carry them to the subway in far less time than via the streetcar.
If that were true, wouldn't the 22A be empty on weekends when it runs all the way to Victoria Park, because people would use the 64 and 92 instead? Yet the 22 service on weekends is more frequent than the streetcar service on weekdays!
 
I don't understand why Roncevalles needs transit period. I always walk between Parkdale/Queen West and Bloor. Doesn't take more than 23 minutes--which is about the same time it takes to wait for a streetcar....

The elderly would not agree with you. The wait you experience is one reason for the 507 Long Branch to go up Roncesvalles to Dundas West Station. Anyways, Roncesvalles is also used by the streetcars to get them into and out of service for the 505 Dundas and 506 Carlton.
 
I don't understand why Roncevalles needs transit period. I always walk between Parkdale/Queen West and Bloor. Doesn't take more than 23 minutes--which is about the same time it takes to wait for a streetcar....

AH!!!!! it nice to be young and able to walk freely..................Wait until you need a walker, or cane and make that same statement then. Then there is the heart issue as well breathing.

There is a section of the population that walking has a great effect on them due to all kinds of medical conditions that prevents them from walking long distance. It is a chore for them to walk a few feet let alone blocks and have to rely on transit to get them to where they want to go in the first place. Even ppl with small children will take transit than try to walk your distance.

You have to look at the big picture, not the I one to see how or why ppl use transit to get around.

Like you, I have walked from Bloor to Queen, but there are days I prefer to be on transit.

The ridership is very high for a bus route, but low for streetcars at various times.
 
I don't understand why Roncevalles needs transit period. I always walk between Parkdale/Queen West and Bloor. Doesn't take more than 23 minutes--which is about the same time it takes to wait for a streetcar....

23 minutes to cover 2 kilometres? Physically impossible. The fastest I've walked that distance at is around 50 minutes and I was very winded afterwards. You sir are bionic. :)

nfitz,

Apples and oranges. People who live around Lee or Beech Avenues won't walk all the way over to either Woodbine or Southwood. You can't honestly compare the one or kilometres distance over from Woodbine/Main to the the 11 kilometres that lie in between Long Branch and Dundas West Stn. The 123 or 110B on the weekends would be incredibly fast going to the subway.
 
23 minutes to cover 2 kilometres? Physically impossible.
Is there some humour here I'm missing? Google says it's 2.0 km ... and it also says it's a 23-minute walking time. Google walking times are pretty lax ...

Surely part of the benefit of the 507 to Dundas West, is that it would also provide some stability to the Roncevalles service.

No, not completely comparable to the 22B, but for those closer to Kingsway than Brown Line it's reasonable.
 
Having westbound 501 Queen streetcars stopping at the north-east corner on Queen Street and westbound 507 Long Branch streetcars stopping at the north-west corner on Roncesvalles, would also be a problem for people looking for the first streetcar going along Queensway. Especially with the 3 phase traffic signals at the interesection.
Would be better if both westbounds streetcar could use the north-west corner on the Queensway, on a safety island. However, the tracks going into the Roncesvalles yard would be problematic with the current track configuration.
 
Is there some humour here I'm missing? Google says it's 2.0 km ... and it also says it's a 23-minute walking time. Google walking times are pretty lax ...

Sounds about right. My usual 1.3km walk takes 15min when I'm in no particular hurry. Google agrees...15min.

Fresh: If it's taking you 25min to cover 1km you should see a doctor.
 
Each major city block (Queen to Bloor, Keele to Dufferin, Dufferin to Bathurst, Bathurst to Yonge, etc) takes me max of 23 minutes to walk. If I'm really walking quickly (which is often :)) it's about a 20 minute walk.

Fresh Start--either you're elderly or have serious health issues.

Yes, Roncevalles needs transit, for the sick, those laden with heavy groceries etc. But does it need an expensive tram system? No. A low floor bus every 20 minutes is fine. I would prefer in fact if that bus route looped around--from Parkside to Roncevalles or Coehill Drive/Windermere via the Queensway and either Bloor West or Annette/Dundas West perhaps?
 
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Each major city block (Queen to Bloor, Keele to Dufferin, Dufferin to Bathurst, Bathurst to Yonge, etc) takes me max of 23 minutes to walk. If I'm really walking quickly (which is often :)) it's about a 20 minute walk.

Fresh Start--either you're elderly or have serious health issues.

You seem to forget that esp. on a retail strip like Roncy, walking has its own built-in "distraction factor", i.e. while one *can* do it in 23 minutes, few actually *do*. And yeah, one can be a 70s Participaction fascist and all, but...again, even that measly 23 minutes can be a real drag.

Yes, Roncevalles needs transit, for the sick, those laden with heavy groceries etc. But does it need an expensive tram system? No. A low floor bus every 20 minutes is fine. I would prefer in fact if that bus route looped around--from Parkside to Roncevalles or Coehill Drive/Windermere via the Queensway and either Bloor West or Annette/Dundas West perhaps?

Except that "every 20 minutes" is (at least "officially") less frequent than the Junction or Lansdowne or Ossington buses--and in psychological effect, it's closer to the abysmal, it's-not-worth-it every-half-hour Queensway frequency along Parkside. Though I understand what you mean, i.e. the last "replaced streetcar" in Toronto (Mt Pleasant) is served in a similar frequency. But Mt Pleasant is not Roncy, North Toronto is not High Park, N Toronto's Lululemon yummy-mummies aren't Alternative Grounds hippies or Cherry Bomb hipsters, etc. And it's all the more absurd when you propose Roncy-Swansea loops. The urbanism's way different here. (And when it comes to North Toronto, the less that can be said about the Yonge subway-stop superinterval btw/Eglinton and Lawrence, or Lawrence and York Mills, and the every-20/30-minutesness of bus service up there, the better--now, there's a Class A argument against what you're proposing.)

Above all, you seem to totally disregard what I may call long-term transit psychographics, i.e. that which has bonded (the present reconstruction-caesura excepted) Roncy to a streetcar-line-paced schedule for an eternity--and, really, in quite a special way. It's no wonder Germans, Poles, etc settled here; it's got more of a Mitteleuropa feel, in the best sense, than anyplace else in Toronto. It *thrives* on a hop-on, hop-off street-transit-scaled pace. You can walk those 23 (or 20) minutes if you want to; but the magic is, you don't *have* to, and it doesn't mean you're a lazy lout to choose otherwise. If you must replace the "expensive tram system" here, let it be like the fabled Spadina Bus, not the Mt Pleasant bus--maybe at most, something continuous with the existing Junction bus, i.e. a Queen-to-Runnymede route; and the Junction bus already runs mostly at a "frequent service" pace, so the status quo remains.

Remember: This. Isn't. Yonge. Compare the old King car or the present Roncy bus shuttle to the Yonge bus N of Eglinton; the latter is little more than a convenience to the elderly/infirm, the former is packed to the gills, even if it's only your 23 minute walking distance...
 
Actually, there isn't much difference between Mt Pleasant and Roncevalles, other than the fact the latter is closer to downtown. Both are very white and wealthy neighbourhoods. The relative isolation from another major N/S street like Yonge makes Roncevalles more vibrant. Every 20 minutes was a starting point. It could be every 10 minutes for all I care. South Swansea is very dense. There's tons of Russian immigrants living in those co-ops and apartments around Coehill Drive, yet transit service there is abysmal. Why not connect them to where they really like to shop--Roncevalles and Bloor West Village? My bus loop makes perfect sense if you actually know the people using transit. The Roncevalles streetcar always seemed to have more people getting off at Marion and Howard Park than any other stop--which means they were workers transferring to the College line or nurses and patients going to St Jo's. The amount of car usage in the Roncevalles area is similar to the Mt Pleasant area--both a product of the increasingly upwardly mobile locals.

Streetcars are pretty, and I love them. But in today's TTC funding world, do they make any sense here?
 
Actually, there isn't much difference between Mt Pleasant and Roncevalles, other than the fact the latter is closer to downtown. Both are very white and wealthy neighbourhoods.

Well, look at it this way. The nominal opposition to the Liberals on Mt Pleasant is the Tories; while the NDP is battling it out with the Greens for a distant third. The nominal opposition to the Liberals on Roncy is the NDP; while the Tories are battling it out with the Greens for a distant third. "White and wealthy" don't take the same form everywhere.

The relative isolation from another major N/S street like Yonge makes Roncevalles more vibrant. Every 20 minutes was a starting point. It could be every 10 minutes for all I care. South Swansea is very dense. There's tons of Russian immigrants living in those co-ops and apartments around Coehill Drive, yet transit service there is abysmal. Why not connect them to where they really like to shop--Roncevalles and Bloor West Village? My bus loop makes perfect sense if you actually know the people using transit.

But other than anything generically "Eastern European", what bonds the South Swansea immigrants so umbilically to Roncesvalles that they absolutely must have such direct, regular access there? Where do you have proof that they so "really like to shop" there? Roncy and Swansea have *always* been distinct universes--the intervening factor of High Park taking a lot of the blame for that; but also because South Swanseans already have Bloor West Village in closer and more accessible proximity. And if we're talking about "Russian immigrants"; well, Bloor West has a long tradition for being for Ukes what Roncy was for Poles, so there's more "Cyrillic synergy" there. So, if you want improved transit, bolster the Swansea bus, or even the Queensway bus if it's about "Roncy-accessibility" (or even Etobi-accessibility, given how much Central/Eastern European retail exists there)--and then there's the Queen streetcar, which as we all know, needs improvement in and of itself. Otherwise, the kind of loop you're suggesting is, well, almost as tenuous as the Pape bus's extension into the downtown core.

The Roncevalles streetcar always seemed to have more people getting off at Marion and Howard Park than any other stop--which means they were workers transferring to the College line or nurses and patients going to St Jo's. The amount of car usage in the Roncevalles area is similar to the Mt Pleasant area--both a product of the increasingly upwardly mobile locals.

Streetcars are pretty, and I love them. But in today's TTC funding world, do they make any sense here?

Put it this way. Having lived there, having had family lived there, and having followed the neighbourhood's trajectory from Polacks to Zooey Deschanel clones, I can tell you you haven't a clue.

And otherwise, if streetcars don't makes sense here, they don't make sense anywhere in Toronto--but I see your point if the future of streetcar travel is LRV, because an LRV line zipping up Roncy feels borderline ridiculous, and would probably do more harm than good to the existing transit-based urban qualities...
 
I'll grant you weekend traffic on the Roncy streetcar line is very different--you've got plenty of Polish folk going to church for example. That said, the current transit plan should reflect what the neighbourhood is becoming, not what it was. It's becoming a wealthy enclave of mostly white waspy folk. How do I know? I worked for Elections Canada at a polling station a few years ago and could see old vs. new Roncy money. Now, as an Englishman myself, I don't see that as a bad thing....

Really what keeps the riding NDP is the older generation of immigrants+new immigrants and residents of the rental apartments, like in my immediate neighbourhood. As the area increases in wealth, and apartment dwellers come in from increasingly diverse places (it's interesting to see the new arrivals entering my complex--3 years ago they were mostly Eastern European while now they're becoming a mix of Turkish, Latin American and English/Irish immigrants. I see these newbies leaning more towards the Liberals.

Oh I have a clue. The past few years has seen me visiting the atrocious St Jo's more often than I'd care to. In the winter, and with relatives, that often meant taking that damned streetcar. I call it the hot nurse express. :D

True, the Queensway is probably more of a destination for Eastern Europeans these days. Which explains why many are moving from the High Park area rentals to the Coe Hill drive co-ops/apartments, and increasingly, the new condos like NXT, Park Lake etc. I guess my bus route loop idea is based on some successful loopy routes I've ridden on in other cities. It's also based on the fact many of my Russian friends are becoming socially isolated from me, as I rarely make it to the lower Swansea area....
 
One only needs to look what happened on Dundas Street West north of Bloor Street, when the Dundas streetcar was replaced with the 40 Junction trolley bus followed by the diesel bus to see what happened. Ridership went down with each change of vehicle. Happened to other streetcar services that were replaced with buses: ridership drops.

Once the streetcar returns to Roncesvalles, ridership will go back up. Maybe more ridership with the change in streetscape.
 
^Although the Junction is picking up again, without tram service. The decline of that strip had more to do with NFTA and the changing economy--industrial employment lands dying, the movement of old Junction families to either the 'burbs (for better job opportunities) or other trendier Toronto neighbourhoods--than lack of streetcar service.
 

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