Roncesvalles Reconstruction

[nfitz]

When I asked him if, at one of the Neighbourhood meetings, that if a Company is deemed "incompetent" can the City "Blacklist" them from bidding on a Contract? He said no.

Well he's wrong. I've seen TTC tendering documents - and they make it quite clear that past performance on TTC contracts is taken into account. It might not get you fired - but it can make it more difficult for you to get another contract - at least for some time.

 

[Armbruster]

Well he's wrong. I've seen TTC tendering documents - and they make it quite clear that past performance on TTC contracts is taken into account. It might not get you fired - but it can make it more difficult for you to get another contract - at least for some time.

The City's procurement policy is summarized here. It says:

"the expectation is that the lowest bid meeting the requirements specified in the Call would be accepted, subject to any other provisions of the City’s Municipal Code."​

Later in the document, it indicates that other factors, such as service quality and past performance, can be taken into consideration, but only if the bidding results in a tie. I can see no indication that these considerations can be used in order to accept a higher bid. But perhaps someone can point to the policy that allows City purchasers to make these non-monetary judgement calls in order to accept higher bids.

The Purchasing section of the Municipal Code is here, if that helps.

 

[nfitz]

Note the language "lowest bid meeting the requirements specified in the Call".

I have seen in the Call a phrase about vendors having adequate expertise and capabilities to do the work, noting that poor past performance may be taken into account.

To be honest though, City of Toronto tendering is very clean. Generally I find the lower down the level of government you go from the Feds (Federal tendering is very clean, despite the impression the media make), the worse it gets. Rural Ontario townships being the worst ... perhaps the bigger the government, the cleaner it is ...

 

[Armbruster]

I have seen in the Call a phrase about vendors having adequate expertise and capabilities to do the work, noting that poor past performance may be taken into account.

"Past performance" can have different meanings, and my hunch is that the City defines this pretty tightly to mean outright incompetence that is provable in court. Things like good communications, considerate and minimally disruptive construction staging, and dust management are more subjective and difficult to define and legally enforce. Finishing on time seems pretty clear and objective, but even then a contractor could plausibly claim a number of reasons why a late finish did not reflect poor performance. The more assurances we demand, the greater the risk for the contractor, and the higher the bids and the construction costs. The more subjective our requirements, the greater the risk of shady purchasing practices, or lawsuits by contractors who feel they were treated unfairly.

Again, the real problem here is that "performance," as normal people living through construction would understand it, cannot be properly defined ahead of time in a private contract for a large and complex project. A contract can require the site managers to meet weekly with the community, but it can't compel those managers to actually listen, or to act on any complaints, unless those specific actions are mandated by the contract. And who can predict all the issues that might arise during a project on the scale of St. Clair or Roncesvalles? We expect construction crews to genuinely care about the well-being of our communities, but in the real world these contractors can only be expected to care about their own interests. I am sure the vast majority of crews want to maintain goodwill, but not at all costs. There is a limit to any private contract's ability to compel contractors to give a damn, which ultimately is what we are demanding.

If a business found that a core activity was always being hopelessly complicated by contracting issues, it would bring that activity in-house. That is, after all, why we have companies and not just a bunch of contracted individuals. Similarly, if Toronto wants construction crews to act like they work for the public, then we should consider using public workers.

 

[nfitz]

True ... though they are so utterly rigid and picky on contracting, I'm sure they could toss a tender of someone they had really bad experiences with on some technicality ... failure to dot an i or something ... it's very hard not to break one of their very anal requirements inadvertently.

Does the contractor for this have a history at TTC? Was it poor? One bad job, doesn't make a bad contractor.

 

[drum118]

True ... though they are so utterly rigid and picky on contracting, I'm sure they could toss a tender of someone they had really bad experiences with on some technicality ... failure to dot an i or something ... it's very hard not to break one of their very anal requirements inadvertently.

Does the contractor for this have a history at TTC? Was it poor? One bad job, doesn't make a bad contractor.

What would you class Orion as since TTC has received some thing like 15 free buses due to various issues with the new buses a few years ago??

Depending what that one bad job was and what took place to get it finish, does not make the contractor a bad one. At the same time, if it was a royal screw up, then the contractor is a bad one.

There is a lot of factors that come into play to say if a contractor/sub is a good one or bad one and has to be review on a case by case look. I have seen my share as well worked for a few of those companys.

As for the contractor doing this project, I don't know of any case where the contractor has fallen down these past 5 years of watching them do their job with TTC on other projects. In fact, they have finish ahead of schedule on a few of them.

What happen to the contractor that did the Bay/Dundas intersection a few years ago who hit the gas line during construction and was almost 3 weeks behind schedule doing Dundas W from Yonge to Bathurst?? Have not seen that company doing anymore work for TTC these days.

 

[drum118]

April 15, 2011: To a photo walking tour of Roncesvalle Ave from Dundas to Queen St to see what is new in the way of reconstruction of this road. East sidewalk built from Dundas to Howard Park now.
New hydro poles installed on the west side to support new transformers and rewiring of the road.
Gas line work is still not finish south of Howard Park and this is stopping the contractor to finish off this area.
Noticed that the southbound lane has been cut up to replace the gas line and not sure if that section of the road was rebuilt last year or not. If so, it will have to be rebuilt again as well repaved.
Bell crews are delaying the contractor from finishing off the new sidewalks.
The contractor has about 30 men on site working in various locations to get the rest of the east sidewalk rebuilt.
I would say that the east side sidewalk should be finish in mid May and this will allow the contractor to start rebuilding the northbound lane and build the new built out platforms for the streetcars.
The contractor still has work on the west side like the east side to do yet and don't expect to see this finish until mid July.
There are a number of places that the contractor is going to have to fix or redo that were done last year due to various issues.
I will be surprise if plan June date is meet.

[video=youtube;L8F_6afG2yg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8F_6afG2yg[/video]

 

[Dan416]

I'm going to start saying "Ronces-vayez" from now on.

 

[drum118]

May 8
my comments are on the youtube site. See the hydro and gas company still up to their old tricks.
[video=youtube;4970Frmf6eE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4970Frmf6eE[/video]

 

[catcher_of_cats]

The road itself is about ready to be reopened for normal traffic, with road line painting commencing today and the majoring of the paving is complete.

 

[drum118]

The road itself is about ready to be reopened for normal traffic, with road line painting commencing today and the majoring of the paving is complete.

That maybe at the south end, but not the north end. There are a few blocks on the west side where the old pavement is still there, that still yet to see reconstrction due the gas line work.

 

[pman]

April 15, 2011: To a photo walking tour of Roncesvalle Ave from Dundas to Queen St to see what is new in the way of reconstruction of this road. East sidewalk built from Dundas to Howard Park now.
New hydro poles installed on the west side to support new transformers and rewiring of the road.
Gas line work is still not finish south of Howard Park and this is stopping the contractor to finish off this area.
Noticed that the southbound lane has been cut up to replace the gas line and not sure if that section of the road was rebuilt last year or not. If so, it will have to be rebuilt again as well repaved.
Bell crews are delaying the contractor from finishing off the new sidewalks.
The contractor has about 30 men on site working in various locations to get the rest of the east sidewalk rebuilt.
I would say that the east side sidewalk should be finish in mid May and this will allow the contractor to start rebuilding the northbound lane and build the new built out platforms for the streetcars.
The contractor still has work on the west side like the east side to do yet and don't expect to see this finish until mid July.
There are a number of places that the contractor is going to have to fix or redo that were done last year due to various issues.
I will be surprise if plan June date is meet.

[video=youtube;L8F_6afG2yg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8F_6afG2yg[/video]

If the City is going to remove the pavement down to the dirt level and dig a big trench, why can't Toronto Hydro bury the overhead wires at the same time? I can't believe the job would be that expensive, given the site work that's already been done.

 

[nfitz]

If the City is going to remove the pavement down to the dirt level and dig a big trench, why can't Toronto Hydro bury the overhead wires at the same time? I can't believe the job would be that expensive, given the site work that's already been done.

That's what went wrong on St. Clair - they tried to do it at the same time. Doesn't work ... adds extra costs to both projects while they try to co-ordinate. Cheaper to just let each do their own thing if/when they are good and ready. If really want to do all get hydro, gas, water, sewer, storm, etc. all to do their projects for 5 years or so before the road/track work starts.

 

[junctionist]

That's what went wrong on St. Clair - they tried to do it at the same time. Doesn't work ... adds extra costs to both projects while they try to co-ordinate. Cheaper to just let each do their own thing if/when they are good and ready. If really want to do all get hydro, gas, water, sewer, storm, etc. all to do their projects for 5 years or so before the road/track work starts.

I've heard time and time again that what went wrong on St. Clair was the tactics of certain locals to prevent the ROW upgrade from going forward altogether, throwing the multi-phase project off schedule. Also, for some reason, certain sections of St. Clair still have a thick black wire running along one side of the road. Hopefully, removing it will be one of those final touches that are yet to be done.

If overhead wires aren't buried 5 years before the tracks need to be rebuilt, the reconstruction of the street may be a last opportunity to bury them for a couple of decades or more before the road will need to be reconstructed again. It's possible that all the utility work can be done more efficiently at once than doing it at separate times, though the construction planning becomes more sophisticated.

 

[Jonny5]

If the City is going to remove the pavement down to the dirt level and dig a big trench, why can't Toronto Hydro bury the overhead wires at the same time? I can't believe the job would be that expensive, given the site work that's already been done.

Isn't there a lot more to "burying" hydro wires than simply burying them?
I would think they need to access each building to make new connections and construct vaults for transformers.
I can't believe they could just shove them into that trench and it would all just work out.