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Rocco Rossi wants subways too!

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LowerBay

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Well, another mayoral candidate just jumped on the subway bandwagon. Rossi figures that by selling off strategic pieces of Toronto's assets (Hydro?) and eliminating the city's debt, the $450 million the city currently pays each year towards that debt can then be redirected to subway construction at a rate of two stations per year. This makes three candidates pushing for subways -- Thompson, Ford, and now Rossi. It doesn't look too good for Transit City right now. Are David Miller and Steve Munro both on the verge of a nervous breakdown?
 
LowerBay said:
Well, another mayoral candidate just jumped on the subway bandwagon. Rossi figures that by selling off strategic pieces of Toronto's assets (Hydro?) and eliminating the city's debt, the $450 million the city currently pays each year towards that debt can then be redirected to subway construction at a rate of two stations per year. This makes three candidates pushing for subways -- Thompson, Ford, and now Rossi. It doesn't look too good for Transit City right now. Are David Miller and Steve Munro both on the verge of a nervous breakdown?
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I want my 30 seconds back from reading that.
 
2km of subways per year, starting with Sheppard, paid for by the balance of debt servicing costs eliminated after debt is payed off by selling things like Toronto Hydro. Right now, he's got my vote. Enough with this Euro-dementia bulls**t, let's build transportation that actually works.
 
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hkric88 said:
2km of subways per year, starting with Sheppard, paid for by the balance of debt servicing costs eliminated after debt is payed off by selling things like Toronto Hydro. Right now, he's got my vote. Enough with this Euro-dementia bulls**t, let's build transportation that actually works.
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How much does Toronto Hydro worth? And does subway construction really cost hundreds of million per km, minus the hidden fees, union labour fees and political surcharge?

With some myth busting on construction costs, I think Rossi is close to nailing down the basic plan on subway construction. Air rights can help actually in developments around the subway corridor. Tolls should be placed soon enough, but for its own part (road maintenance and beautification rather than onto subways only), and not exorbitant pricing (distance-based pricing instead of flat $5).
 
I don't think Rossi's numbers add up (see what George Smitherman has to say about them), but the tide is definitely shifting away from LRT. The general public doesn't see LRT as a solution to our traffic woes.
 
LRT as a vision for this city has been tarnished by Miller and co. They had their chance on St. Clair. They could have shown what LRTt could be with wider stops and proof of payment system and new vehicles. Instead we got a line that is only slightly more reliable but not much faster. This is what the residents see as LRT and people don't like it.

If Sheppard E LRT ever opens and is done right it could be a model but again the mayor messed up what should have been a natural subway expansion. Finch would have been a good example and not as controversial but again politics came into play and this is the mess we are left with.
 
For my masters, I'm doing a large project on the Downtown Relief Line which will be online June 15th with more than just maps... it'll have cost breakdowns, ridership projections... the equivalent of about 120 pages of information. Naturally, the site will link to the current facebook group and existing petition. My goal is to promote the page and ultimately try to make the DRL itself more of an election issue since subways seem to be all the rage, might as well build the right one.

I e-mailed all the potential mayoral candidates about it, but have yet to hear back. So far only Rob Ford replied, and his reply seemed to be more of a scan for the word "transit" and give a general response based on transit without making any specific mention of the DRL plan. Hopefully with enough attention the candidates might weigh in on it...

Regarding the LRT vs. Subway thing... people seem to be debating it as almost an either/or situation. They both have their roles, but I guess ultimately money has to determine which comes first. Given the constraints of the Yonge line, I'd probably build the DRL first (at least the first stage of it), Sheppard to STC second, then most of the LRT followed by future DRL extensions. But that's just my view on it.
 
LowerBay said:
I don't think Rossi's numbers add up (see what George Smitherman has to say about them), but the tide is definitely shifting away from LRT.
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I'm used to seeing politicians attack other politicians; but if half of George's claims hold water, then Rossi should withdraw from the race. And I say this as someone who has been speaking against Smitherman. Hopefully one of our media outlets will dispatch Rossi quickly.
 
I've said this before, but I think this all really comes down to, what does the average want. We have to consider the values and desires of the masses when considering mass transportation. I think its a real issue that people who are very passionate and engaged in transit have values and ideals that may not match the majority of the transit ridership.

I do not intend to disrespect or 'bash' so called 'transit fans'. I think everyone has a passion and sort of obsession about some thing, be it sports cars or boats. But I do truly sense that many of the very passionate 'transit fans' that are also very pro LRT, tend to ride and value the system in a different way from the majority. People who, for example, might take great joy in just the trip itself (even I am one of these people I might add), or they might take great joy in how a mode appears (i.e how LRT 'interacts' with the streetscape). Truly, I think that most people who ride the system have other things on their mind, they have a destination that they want to get to as comfortably, quickly and conveniently as possible. Unfortunately LRT does not provide any of these, while subway provides all of these.

LRT is outdoors, and we are prone to nasty winters, and sitting inside a dinkly "shelter" in the blowing, freezing cold waiting for a glorified streetcar is a very discouraging experience. Getting stopped at a traffic light, ANY TRAFFIC LIGHTS, is a discouraging experience, and it makes the system appear even slower than it might actually be.

Its surprising how little talk I hear about the experience of waiting for the next train. It is something I consider often. When the weather is really quite repulsive and cold, even most unheated subway stations are quite comfortable: they are extremely well sheltered, as an intrinsic feature. But not only that, waiting 10 minutes for a subway train is an extremely rare event, I really doubt that would be the case with LRT.

Subways are very desirable for your average Joe, for the majority of users, it is the only system that has a chance at really causing transit dependence amongst a sizable portion of the population. We should not be building a system based on cop-outs, narrow minds, and the desire for some to enjoy the experience of riding a line where they can look out the window at imaginary 6-story mid-rise 'European' mixed-use buildings with cafes at their base.
 
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LowerBay said:
Well, another mayoral candidate just jumped on the subway bandwagon. Rossi figures that by selling off strategic pieces of Toronto's assets (Hydro?) and eliminating the city's debt, the $450 million the city currently pays each year towards that debt can then be redirected to subway construction at a rate of two stations per year. This makes three candidates pushing for subways -- Thompson, Ford, and now Rossi. It doesn't look too good for Transit City right now. Are David Miller and Steve Munro both on the verge of a nervous breakdown?
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He hasn't really said where he will find the $2.5B (current debt) + ~$300M/year (operating deficit) + $500M/year (unfunded debt for current projects like new subway and streetcars).

The odds of him pulling $4B out of the cities finances to accomplish the prerequisites to subway construction seem pretty slim; especially if he holds the line on property taxes and user fees at the same time.

One way of doing this is to eliminate 30% of current TTC service and halve the police force.
 
LRT is outdoors, and we are prone to nasty winters, and sitting inside a dinkly "shelter" in the blowing, freezing cold waiting for a glorified streetcar is a very discouraging experience. Getting stopped at a traffic light, ANY TRAFFIC LIGHTS, is a discouraging experience, and it makes the system appear even slower than it might actually be.

Its surprising how little talk I hear about the experience of waiting for the next train. It is something I consider often. When the weather is really quite repulsive and cold, even most unheated subway stations are quite comfortable: they are extremely well sheltered, as an intrinsic feature. But not only that, waiting 10 minutes for a subway train is an extremely rare event, I really doubt that would be the case with LRT.
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You have valid concerns here, and if we were going to get LRT which doesn't take advantage of modern technologies like GPS tracking, I'd be concerned too.

Imagine this: no waiting outdoors for your lrt in winter; you sit in the nearby Tim Hortons sipping hot chocolate, and watch the plasma screen showing a live map, and arrival times of all the next vehicles to the station. In fact, your Blackberry will show you the wait time, so you don't have to leave the house too early or too late to make it to the stop on time.
 
kettal said:
Who will pay $2 billion for a heavily regulated utility like Toronto Hydro?
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Nobody. I don't recall hearing a number like that from the Board of Trade either.

Remember, Toronto Hydro owes the city about $500M which they pay a pretty good chunk of interest on. A purchase price of $600M means an actual NET of $100M.
 
LowerBay said:
Rossi figures that by selling off strategic pieces of Toronto's assets (Hydro?) and eliminating the city's debt, the $450 million the city currently pays each year towards that debt can then be redirected to subway construction at a rate of two stations per year.
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So can someone explain to me how selling a profitable asset somehow reduces our debt? It would definitely cause a surplus for a year, but after that there would be $50 million per year in lost revenue. Honestly, I'd prefer that we didn't take the money now and have more money in the budget in the future to do things like reduce debt and building subways. If it only costs $2 billion to completely eliminate it the debt, then why don't we just pay it off without selling profitable assets. Then we would save 500 million per year, if his logic is correct.

Jupiter said:
Regarding the LRT vs. Subway thing... people seem to be debating it as almost an either/or situation. They both have their roles, but I guess ultimately money has to determine which comes first. Given the constraints of the Yonge line, I'd probably build the DRL first (at least the first stage of it), Sheppard to STC second, then most of the LRT followed by future DRL extensions. But that's just my view on it.
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You have my vote. They both have their place. Obviously it doesn't make sense to build a subway on Finch, and it doesn't make sense to build an LRT as the DRL.
 
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