Roads: Keep the Gardiner, fix it, or get rid of it? (2005-2014)

[GregWTravels]

all the clothes you wear, the tv's, laptops, ipods, and all the stuff you buy which keeps our economy going and keeps you employed happens because of sinful poison belching carbon burning vehicles.

Agreed. And all those things can be delivered off hours - when it's not rush hour and there isn't a toll.

If people need to get to work, there are plenty of GO Transit lots with tons of parking in all directions on the outskirts of the city, or TTC lots in a number of places that people could park at and take transit downtown.

Greg

 

[istrian]

We need the big Big Dig as it has been done in Boston,
probably from Dufferin to Lower Sherbourne or Parliament
Tunnel, whatever it cost, the sooner the better.
:smokin :hat :smokin

 

[ahrvojic]

If people need to get to work, there are plenty of GO Transit lots with tons of parking in all directions on the outskirts of the city, or TTC lots in a number of places that people could park at and take transit downtown.

Unfortunately those commuter lots look a lot better on paper. I don't think a single one is under capacity, nevermind the traffic in and out of them.

 

[frizzed]

The "big dig" is a terrible idea, as is a congestion charge or any charge for that matter. Leave the Gardiner and work around it.

 

[Mike in TO]

If people need to get to work, there are plenty of GO Transit lots with tons of parking in all directions on the outskirts of the city, or TTC lots in a number of places that people could park at and take transit downtown.

Have you ever tried to park at Clarkson or Port Credit during rush hour before? Most of these lots are packed full after 8:00 a.m.

Also one should ask, just how many modes of transportation one should take in the morning. Yes many will park the car and take GO and then the TTC - but it is impractical to suggest everyone should do so given vastly different circumstances. One size doesn't fit all.

Some people that live downtown don't understand how difficult it actually would be for 905ers to leave the car at home and take transit.

The Lakeshore GO line is a good transit corridor, but beyond that most other GO lines don't have the capacity, frequency or number of trains to be useful unless you are working a 9-5 shift.

And for the record I don't own a car and use TTC to get to and from work, but most people should recognize that transit simply isn't an option for many people.

Edit: I can't spell...

 

[Transportfan]

Quote: We need the big Big Dig as it has been done in Boston,
probably from Dufferin to Lower Sherbourne or Parliament
Tunnel, whatever it cost, the sooner the better.

Burying the Gardiner would be much cheaper than Boston's 'Big Dig', as the area north of the Gardiner is empty and free of old crumbling buildings.

 

[SD2]

How many millions are poured into the DVP each year? Or the 401? Or Allen Road? Or any road or street for that matter. Ive never said it was a great struture or that I wouldnt be glad to see it go. But will another 10 years of the Gardiner really be all that bad?

Unlike the rest of those highways, the Gardiner is going to fall apart sooner rather than later. Why wait 10 years when something can be done now? It's only going to be more expensive and more difficult then.

If anything it provides the city with a workable timeline. Take the next 10 years, rebuild the Lakeshore line, upgrade Union Station to handle more passenger, bury the tracks or build over them. Essentially do all the necessary upgrades to the rail system in the city and in the core so that when the Gardiner is ready to come down, there is a commuter system in place that will help absorb extra traffic that results from constructing the Gardiner in a tunnel, or just elmininating it and rebuilding city streets in the area.

That's sounds like a good plan. It should be noted that according to studies, the traffic usually on the Gardiner will just be redistrubted throughout the city.

 

[Archivistower]

I don't support a Big Dig project like Boston's. The big difference is that in Boston removing the expressway was not an option because it was used very heavily for through traffic. The Gardiner is basically a means of getting people to the centre of the city, we have at least two other "just passing through routes". For this reason, the expense of the Big Dig is not feasible here.

Although I haven't been to Boston post-big-dig, I've seen Montreal's Ville Marie and it seems to me that people forget the on and offramps on a buried expressway. They are big, concrete, noisy portals to hell that take up a lot of space and block expected means of getting around the city.

I'm sympathetic to people for whom transit is not an option, but I don't think removing the Gardiner will change what they do. If they come from the north-east, instead of taking the DVP to the Gardiner and scooting along the Gardiner to downtown, they'll take the DVP to Richmond where it will end and scoot across downtown on surface streets. The difference in my mind is minimal, their commute will be 35 minutes instead of 30 if they live near Lawrence, or 1:35 instead of 1:30 if they live in Whitby.

The Gardiner represents a huge continued investment in bringing these people close to their doors via an expressway, paid for by all of us in terms of maintenance, lost tax revenue, and a noisome environment.

 

[Brighter Hell]

Unlike the rest of those highways, the Gardiner is going to fall apart sooner rather than later. Why wait 10 years when something can be done now? It's only going to be more expensive and more difficult then.

tokyo manages to maintain an entire network of elevated freeways. i'm sure toronto can maintain just one. there are lots of reasons to demolish the gardiner, "it's crumbling" isn't one of them.

 

[jcapitain]

They must have planned to take it down long ago otherwise it wouldn't have been allowed to get in the "rickerty" state we see today.

I hope they wanted to save the maintenance money to put towards the replacement costs. The fact is that the time has come where it must be torn down or completely refurbished and it has come sooner than expected.

Now, if they don't tear it down soon, and instead decide to repair, they probably feel they will be buying too much time. For repairs to be cost effective they may have to last for a certain length of time (ie. 5-10 years).

Repairing would just be putting off the inevitable in my opinion, "get 'er down!"

 

[Brighter Hell]

are you a structural engineer? how do you know that it's structurally unsound, or soon will be? what inspection reports are you basing your opinion on?

 

[ganjavih]

I dunno... I have mixed feelings about this. Burying the Gardiner would cost a fortune and would only partially solve the problem... there's still the tracks and Lakeshore. We could probably build a new subway line with that money. There's also the issue of cost overruns. The Big Dig was supposed to cost just over $2 billion. I think the actual cost is approaching $20 billion. That's absurd.

 

[jcapitain]

are you a structural engineer? how do you know that it's structurally unsound, or soon will be? what inspection reports are you basing your opinion on?

You guys do make me laugh sometimes...

article

This is what I read that lead me to my opinons, cheers!

 

[JoeyCuppa]

Tear it down east of Spadina. Put a Streetcar ROW down the middle of lakeshore from Spadina all the way to Kingston Rd., let cars have one lane in each direction, stick a bikelane each way too (maybe seperated from traffic by a strip of greenery and trees?) and trees everywhere.

Toronto will thrive. Some said Toronto would fail without the Spadina, Crosstown, and Scarborough expressways, but it has thrived because of their absence.

Cater to people, not to cars.

 

[cassiusa]

Whistler, I'm not really suggesting making it $0.25/empty seat to persuade most drivers from using it, though I'm sure some would choose other routes because of the "non-user fees". I'm mostly thinking about keeping it low enough so that people continue to use it. That way funds can be reserved and used to eventually bring it down and either create a blvd or put it underground.

After spending some time looking at the Gardiner and Lakeshore on google maps, I'm amazed by how much space those beasts eat up. There'd be enough room there to remove both and make a nice University-like avenue with dedicated right-of-way transit space, massive sidewalks and biking lanes. Since most vehicles would be turning northbound, perhaps have the ROW on the south-side.

With at least double the number of north-south connections (major roads/side streets) than the Gardiner has, I would think traffic could actually be 'reduced' along that corridor.


edit:
Just to emphasize my point, have a look at how wide the Lakeshore/Gardiner combination is. Picture was posted by You Are To Blame on SSC. With East Bayfront etc, a bit more densification along this corridor - LRT may be justifiable.