Northern Light
Superstar
May I say, many fine arguments though I see made above, does this particular tangent actually have anything to do with traffic signals?
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Roads: Traffic Signals
- Thread starter reaperexpress
- Start date
mistersg1
Active Member
I’ve lived in Brampton all my life, so I can speak when road systems changed.
I don’t care what your credentials are, reaper, but you’ve shown your true colours now. Induced demand I will simply say is hogwash.
Everyone seems to forget that cities GROW, which happened quick in Brampton due to high immigration, it’s that simple.
Much of Hwy 410 as we know it for example, as it’s been brought up, prior to the 2015 widening, was virtually the same as it was in 1991. Back then, Brampton had a population under 200,000, I don’t know how much exactly but it’s a fraction of what it is today.
As cities grow, more people use the infrastructure, and thus more traffic finds its way onto Hwy 410 as the place has grown.
This similar effect is true with hospitals, the old Peel Memorial Hospital closed down in 2007 and was replaced with a modern hospital, Brampton Civic Hospital. By your logic, I guess we shouldn’t build more hospitals because a new hospital would simply jam up to capacity like the old one did over time, it’s honesty the same logic.
The reason simply why more traffic exists is because a lot more people live in Brampton, it’s not rocket science.
I’m for balanced solutions going forward, that is building true rapid transit, not half baked nonsense like transit city. Just over a half century ago, Metro Toronto agreed it would focus on transit and not build any new freeways…..and where exactly are we with that. A true worthwhile subway line hasn’t been built since The Beatles were still making music together.
A few more points about Hwy 410 before I wrap this up, the widening which happened in 2015 ended up having trickery up its sleeve, the MTO made it worse because they in essence took lane capacity away. With all the quick lane drops now before Queen Street, 3 in a span of just under 1.5 km, prior to the widening, 3 lanes got past Clark, technically only 2 lanes get past Clark now as the HOV acts as the 3rd lane.
Similarly regarding induced demand, Hwy 410 has definitely improved Heart Lake Road north of Bovaird, do you remember when Hwy 410 ended and became Heart Lake Road, it was in essence an arterial with a school on it, now it’s a quiet and peaceful collector, even a good 15 years after that Hwy 410 extension opened. Induced demand says every road would fill up would
It not?
I don’t care what your credentials are, reaper, but you’ve shown your true colours now. Induced demand I will simply say is hogwash.
Everyone seems to forget that cities GROW, which happened quick in Brampton due to high immigration, it’s that simple.
Much of Hwy 410 as we know it for example, as it’s been brought up, prior to the 2015 widening, was virtually the same as it was in 1991. Back then, Brampton had a population under 200,000, I don’t know how much exactly but it’s a fraction of what it is today.
As cities grow, more people use the infrastructure, and thus more traffic finds its way onto Hwy 410 as the place has grown.
This similar effect is true with hospitals, the old Peel Memorial Hospital closed down in 2007 and was replaced with a modern hospital, Brampton Civic Hospital. By your logic, I guess we shouldn’t build more hospitals because a new hospital would simply jam up to capacity like the old one did over time, it’s honesty the same logic.
The reason simply why more traffic exists is because a lot more people live in Brampton, it’s not rocket science.
I’m for balanced solutions going forward, that is building true rapid transit, not half baked nonsense like transit city. Just over a half century ago, Metro Toronto agreed it would focus on transit and not build any new freeways…..and where exactly are we with that. A true worthwhile subway line hasn’t been built since The Beatles were still making music together.
A few more points about Hwy 410 before I wrap this up, the widening which happened in 2015 ended up having trickery up its sleeve, the MTO made it worse because they in essence took lane capacity away. With all the quick lane drops now before Queen Street, 3 in a span of just under 1.5 km, prior to the widening, 3 lanes got past Clark, technically only 2 lanes get past Clark now as the HOV acts as the 3rd lane.
Similarly regarding induced demand, Hwy 410 has definitely improved Heart Lake Road north of Bovaird, do you remember when Hwy 410 ended and became Heart Lake Road, it was in essence an arterial with a school on it, now it’s a quiet and peaceful collector, even a good 15 years after that Hwy 410 extension opened. Induced demand says every road would fill up would
It not?
reaperexpress
Senior Member
Oh no, I've given up the jig! My true colours are exposed!
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adys123
Active Member
Oh nice, now induced demand is a conspiracy
innsertnamehere
Superstar
induced demand is not a conspiracy, but it's also vastly misportrayed in media and most people have a sincere misunderstanding of what it is, how it happens, and the extent of it. New road infrastructure can and usually does result in substantial travel time improvements, even over the long term. It does also tend to induce new trips which previously didn't exist, because, well, they weren't previously possible.
The discussion around induced demand needs to shift from "new roads will make more trips and that means we are just as good to not build it than to build it" - which is very disingenuous and just not true, to a conversation of what types trips we want to be inducing and what the best ways are to serve transportation needs of communities.
adys123
Active Member
It was a sarcastic response to the above post by mistersq1. Both my academic and professional backgrounds are in transportation engineering and planning, so I'm well aware of the misunderstandings in the general public.
reaperexpress
Senior Member
Yeah, to add on to what @innsertnamehere said, the additional trips which are "induced" by the new infrastructure may represent value in itself. People are now willing to make trips that they were not previously willing to make, which is a benefit to them.
This is why it's typically known as "latent demand" in a professional setting, not "induced demand".
This is why it's typically known as "latent demand" in a professional setting, not "induced demand".
afransen
Senior Member
Growth is part of induced demand. Abundant road capacity induced people to live in Brampton, further from employment, education, etc. requiring them to drive. Growth is part of how induced demand plays out.
sche
Active Member
Brampton did not grow because of “abundant road capacity” - most of that road capacity (big arterials, 407, 410) did not exist prior to development.
Brampton grew because of deliberate government policy to zone for and approve new suburban car oriented development and to widen and build new roads in anticipation of and in response to that new development. Road capacity expansion and new suburban development came hand in hand, and I don’t think it’s correct to suggest one directly caused the other. Both are a result of government planning policy, which deliberately directed growth toward car oriented greenfield development and constructed the road infrastructure to serve it.
I think it’s also worth mentioning that suburban development does not necessarily have to occur after road capacity expansion. Development is highly constrained by zoning and government regulation and it is entirely possible that the government can build highways but not permit car oriented development near the highways, essentially eliminating demand induced by suburban development. The typical city in Western Europe has numerous highways, they just don’t allow so much car oriented suburban development.
innsertnamehere
Superstar
A friendly reminder as well that Brampton has some of, if not the highest transit modal shares of any suburban area in Canada and the US.
Dan416
Senior Member
I agree induced demand exists of course. I think Highway 413 will induce demand for sure, but at the same time, the land by what will be the 413 is probably going to be paved over for suburban homes and just end up looking like Brampton. Does the GTA really not have enough suburban homes that we need to build more? We should be redeveloping the existing suburbs to be more dense.
All that said, the 410 is there already, and I know the bottleneck that exists there well and the lanes constantly dropping off from where the recent expansion ends is definitely a problem and speaks to the recent expansion not being sufficient even thought it was recently completed--it was under built/ends too early. Fixing the 410 will reduce the amount of time wasted on a suburban highway that was under built. No matter what time of day I want to head up to the cottage, the 410 is always backed up when you get past the 407. It's literally never free flowing. Even the 401 isn't so bad.
All that said, the 410 is there already, and I know the bottleneck that exists there well and the lanes constantly dropping off from where the recent expansion ends is definitely a problem and speaks to the recent expansion not being sufficient even thought it was recently completed--it was under built/ends too early. Fixing the 410 will reduce the amount of time wasted on a suburban highway that was under built. No matter what time of day I want to head up to the cottage, the 410 is always backed up when you get past the 407. It's literally never free flowing. Even the 401 isn't so bad.
Kitsune
Senior Member
.. another useless set of lights getting installed .. this time its a pedestrian crossing at silver birch / queen being converted to a full set of lights. I dont really see the point of them, the ped crossing was working fine.
toaster29
Active Member
Speaking of Brampton.. can we get lights (or a roundabout) at Countryside and HeartLake? Literally takes 15 minutes to turn left here.
Kitsune
Senior Member
now that I had some time to review ...
community council meeting stated existing set at Queen / Silver Birch (a pedestrian crossing signal) was ok and did not to be modified ( https://secure.toronto.ca/council/agenda-item.do?item=2022.TE33.33)
city council reviewed and state it must be upgraded to a full traffic signal (https://secure.toronto.ca/council/agenda-item.do?item=2022.TE33.33) . I cant really find why it was done, there a communication stating local residents demanded a pedestrian signal at Victoria Park / Queen. seems to have been done on a whim. What is the point of community council meetings if city council is just going to over ride it ..
smably
Senior Member
I know we have some traffic signal skeptics in this thread so I was curious to hear everyone's take on the city's plans in my neighbourhood.
I put together this map showing the existing (grey) and approved (red) traffic signals in my neighbourhood.
This seems like a lot of new traffic lights. Too many? What could we be doing here instead of adding traffic lights at every other intersection?
I put together this map showing the existing (grey) and approved (red) traffic signals in my neighbourhood.
- Bloor and Perth, approved based on a request from the former councillor
- Bloor and St Helens, approved as part of the section 37 agreement for 1319 Bloor
- Bloor and Pauline, approved as part of the Bloor and Dufferin redevelopment, replacing an existing PXO
- Lansdowne and Paton, apparently required as part of the site plan approval for 640 Lansdowne (see "Traffic Operations Assessment"), replacing an existing PXO
This seems like a lot of new traffic lights. Too many? What could we be doing here instead of adding traffic lights at every other intersection?