Roads: Traffic Signals

[Amare]

Traffic signals are being installed at Dundas and Mutual, just one short block west of Jarvis.

I suspect all these will do is slow down streetcars even more. View attachment 496778

This is just getting comically ridiculous and asinine.

Collectively, UT, we need to badger our new Mayor, and several members of Council to say this is not ok, that it has to stop.

A traffic light on ever single block is ridiculous, does not add to safety in the least and obstructs transit, cyclists and pedestrians as much as it does drivers.

Safety is important and ought to be improved, but the art form is narrowing roads, narrowing travel lanes, eliminating slip lanes, tightening turning radii, prohibiting super-long tractor-trailers on City streets, mandating side guards on trucks/buses etc; as well as creating protected, separated cycling facilities, adequate night-time illumination, protected intersections where appropriate and feasible.

It is not about endless traffic lights.

Not to say that I dont agree, because I agree with most of the points you've mentioned here. But it doesn't help when we have people in this city who go complain to the city that there needs to be a traffic light installed at X place because "its dangerous" and "cars are speeding" or whatever other reason that's given.

I remember for instance just a few years ago on Brown's Line where the former councillor made it a point of pride that he installed traffic lights south of Horner Ave which replaced 2 cross-walks with pedestrian islands.

 

[Northern Light]

This is just getting comically ridiculous and asinine.


Not to say that I dont agree, because I agree with most of the points you've mentioned here. But it doesn't help when we have people in this city who go complain to the city that there needs to be a traffic light installed at X place because "its dangerous" and "cars are speeding" or whatever other reason that's given.

I remember for instance just a few years ago on Brown's Line where the former councillor made it a point of pride that he installed traffic lights south of Horner Ave which replaced 2 cross-walks with pedestrian islands.

Sure, but politicians and staff are both guilty of either:

a) Accepting that position and just installing the light

b) Staff oppose the installation of the light w/standard language around 'warrants' without actually identifying a preferable way to improve safety/perception of same.

****

To flip the above. Staff need to say 'No', but then also provide alternatives to address any real or perceived issue.

Even I find that I can identify a useful project to staff of this type (road diet/bump out etc.) and get a private nod of approval, and, then something to the effect of......it probably has to wait until road reconstruction (in 2036) .......

That doesn't work, traffic lights can by--pass the 'it must wait for major road work' rule; but road diets cannot.

Where lights cost upwards of $250,000 per set to install (sometimes more); I think that's a sum that should automatically be available for alternative works in the same location.

Once staff provide a good solution; Council needs to back them up; not thwart them to win two dozen votes.

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

If the traffic signals were actually sequencized with the streetcars, AND with REAL transit priority, maybe they will work in the streetcar favour. Otherwise, the single-occupant automobile will continue to be prioritized. Currently, Drivers Services, I mean, Transportation Services considers a streetcar with 100+ passengers to be a vehicle equal to a single-occupant automobile. Streetcars, light rail vehicles, and buses should get a higher priority.

 

[Northern Light]

If the traffic signals were actually sequencized with the streetcars, AND with REAL transit priority, maybe they will work in the streetcar favour. Otherwise, the single-occupant automobile will continue to be prioritized. Currently, Drivers Services, I mean, Transportation Services considers a streetcar with 100+ passengers to be a vehicle equal to a single-occupant automobile. Streetcars, light rail vehicles, and buses should get a higher priority.

While I certainly support transit priority, @reaperexpress has been kind enough to explain in some detail why traffic-light controlled intersection this close together, more or less, don't function well for anyone and probably can't.

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

While I certainly support transit priority, @reaperexpress has been kind enough to explain in some detail why traffic-light controlled intersection this close together, more or less, don't function well for anyone and probably can't.

Banning of private automobiles (non-taxi or non-delivery vehicles) in the downtown would help. That's what world class cities are doing, which is why Toronto is not doing it.

 

[Dan416]

Banning of private automobiles (non-taxi or non-delivery vehicles) in the downtown would help. That's what world class cities are doing, which is why Toronto is not doing it.

Maybe we should walk before we can run.

 

[Northern Light]

Banning of private automobiles (non-taxi or non-delivery vehicles) in the downtown would help. That's what world class cities are doing, which is why Toronto is not doing it.

Would you please list all the City Regions of 10,000,000 people or greater that have banned cars from their entire downtown, Walter.

Much appreciated, thanks!

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

Downtown or city centres at first. Not the whole city...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1496009723078123523

 

[afransen]

Sure, but politicians and staff are both guilty of either:

a) Accepting that position and just installing the light

b) Staff oppose the installation of the light w/standard language around 'warrants' without actually identifying a preferable way to improve safety/perception of same.

****

To flip the above. Staff need to say 'No', but then also provide alternatives to address any real or perceived issue.

Even I find that I can identify a useful project to staff of this type (road diet/bump out etc.) and get a private nod of approval, and, then something to the effect of......it probably has to wait until road reconstruction (in 2036) .......

That doesn't work, traffic lights can by--pass the 'it must wait for major road work' rule; but road diets cannot.

Where lights cost upwards of $250,000 per set to install (sometimes more); I think that's a sum that should automatically be available for alternative works in the same location.

Once staff provide a good solution; Council needs to back them up; not thwart them to win two dozen votes.

Do road diets or bumpouts really require road reconstruction? Can't we do the same as has been done with bike lanes and use bolt-down concrete curbs, if not just some paint?

 

[Northern Light]

Downtown or city centres at first. Not the whole city...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1496009723078123523

Right Walter.

So that link leads you to an as yet not implemented plan, that would restrict (not ban) traffic, largely from the 1st arrondissement in Paris.

The plan, if implemented, would only cut current traffic by 1/2, as it doesn't ban cars, it restricts, non-essential, through traffic.

In other words it does not conform to the statement you made at all.

 

[Northern Light]

Do road diets or bumpouts really require road reconstruction? Can't we do the same as has been done with bike lanes and use bolt-down concrete curbs, if not just some paint?

You're quite correct, this can be done in the manner you're describing, which I advocate for; I reported on just such an example here on UT at Danforth and Kelvin, in the Vision Zero thread.

The problem is that such thinking remains 'out of the box' for most Councillors and City staff.

 

[reaperexpress]

Sure, but politicians and staff are both guilty of either:

a) Accepting that position and just installing the light

b) Staff oppose the installation of the light w/standard language around 'warrants' without actually identifying a preferable way to improve safety/perception of same.

****

To flip the above. Staff need to say 'No', but then also provide alternatives to address any real or perceived issue.

Even I find that I can identify a useful project to staff of this type (road diet/bump out etc.) and get a private nod of approval, and, then something to the effect of......it probably has to wait until road reconstruction (in 2036) .......

That doesn't work, traffic lights can by--pass the 'it must wait for major road work' rule; but road diets cannot.

Where lights cost upwards of $250,000 per set to install (sometimes more); I think that's a sum that should automatically be available for alternative works in the same location.

Once staff provide a good solution; Council needs to back them up; not thwart them to win two dozen votes.

This is exactly it. While staff is technically correct in their recommendation to not install signals, their methodology is based on antiquated warrants and they do not propose alternative solutions to actually address the genuine issue which caused Council to propose a signal in the first place.

Although Staff are the ones with the expertise, I suspect that this change will need to come from Council itself, or at least upper management at the City, because the current engineers and technicians are required to follow the procedures which are currently part of their job process, even though they know that their current process is awfully ineffective at guiding decisions to produce an efficient and safe road network.

 

[afransen]

I think this is a role that could be played by advocacy organizations like Strong Towns. I hear there is some effort to organize a local chapter in Toronto but it is just getting off the ground. We need organizations like this to meet with councillors and advocate for these alternative approaches.

 

[Northern Light]

I think this is a role that could be played by advocacy organizations like Strong Towns. I hear there is some effort to organize a local chapter in Toronto but it is just getting off the ground. We need organizations like this to meet with councillors and advocate for these alternative approaches.

strongtownstoronto@gmail.com

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[Northern Light]

Alternatively, there are a host of other groups that advocate in similar ways.

Walk Toronto
Cycle Toronto
Vision Zero Canada
The Centre of Active Transportation (TCAT)

And one can also, of course, join one's assorted neighbourhood association.

I think the last one can be among the most effective, when people say they are concerned about their child crossing the street, its often though their NA that they lobby a Councillor for a stop sign or a traffic light.

Those types of groups rarely have an awareness of other options, having someone join who says; what if we could make it safer for your child, by shortening the crossing distance, or by slowing and smoothing the traffic rather than stopping it, might make very material difference.