Roads: Ontario/GTA Highways Discussion

[lenaitch]

'My phone app says I should be right there'.

 

[max]

New bike lanes opened up downtown Toronto...

View attachment 477666

Ride for Heart seems to start earlier every year!

 

[rdaner]

Is it me or has 413 talk gotten very quiet?

 

[innsertnamehere]

Is it me or has 413 talk gotten very quiet?

There were a few articles in the past month or two discussing how the province is struggling to meet the Federal EA requirements and how the feds are stonewalling them and not providing responses to inquiries. - The province of Ontario is backing a supreme court challenge of the Federal EA law which Alberta is leading as well, which I believe was heard this month.

I'll see if I can find it.

Edit: here it is:

TVO Today | Current Affairs Journalism, Documentaries and Podcasts

www.tvo.org

Ontario’s case before the Supreme Court, however, argues that the actual implementation of the IAA has little to do with protecting core areas of federal jurisdiction and is instead being used by the federal government to delay a project for reasons that have few tangible connections with its priorities. In early 2021, the province was asked to submit an “initial project description”; it would eventually be followed by a “detailed project description.” Both will be necessary before the federal government will even decide whether a full impact assessment is actually required.

Ontario’s lawyers stated, in their argument to the court, that, after more than a year of correspondence and meetings with the federal civil service, they had still not received approval for their initial project description, much less the detailed project description. While the IAA has legislated time limits for some stages, there’s no legal clock imposed on the project-description stages, and Ontario warns that the feds could tie up a provincial project in approval purgatory for years before they even decide whether to apply the protections of the law.

 

[whydidimakethis]

With Peel region now set to dissolve, this is probably the end of the Peel regional road network as well. This could go in two directions, one being the Toronto way, with no numbers for any roads. The other way is similar to Hamilton or Kawartha Lakes, with numbered routes in a single tier municipality. Personally, I feel as if no route numbers are the correct way to go, as the numbers as they are are already largely insignificant, other than former Hwy 7 and 24. Even those are probably not worth saving, because everyone knows Queen St. and Bovaird Drive, and Peel Regional Road 24 is still called "Highway 24".

edit: message 100!

 

[lenaitch]

With Peel region now set to dissolve, this is probably the end of the Peel regional road network as well. This could go in two directions, one being the Toronto way, with no numbers for any roads. The other way is similar to Hamilton or Kawartha Lakes, with numbered routes in a single tier municipality. Personally, I feel as if no route numbers are the correct way to go, as the numbers as they are are already largely insignificant, other than former Hwy 7 and 24. Even those are probably not worth saving, because everyone knows Queen St. and Bovaird Drive, and Peel Regional Road 24 is still called "Highway 24".

edit: message 100!

This is just one of the many things the transition board will have to work out. Names or numbers on roads have some legal title implications but also an emergency response impact. The would have to work out how a named or numbered current-Regional road will be treated when it crosses a municipal border, including the '911' numbering of the properties enroute.

Whether folks still call a road by an old name is probably just human habit and I'm not sure how much a jurisdictional change can alter that. It happens all over the place, particularly when a municipality used the same number as the former highway.

 

[Dan416]

This is just one of the many things the transition board will have to work out. Names or numbers on roads have some legal title implications but also an emergency response impact. The would have to work out how a named or numbered current-Regional road will be treated when it crosses a municipal border, including the '911' numbering of the properties enroute.

Whether folks still call a road by an old name is probably just human habit and I'm not sure how much a jurisdictional change can alter that. It happens all over the place, particularly when a municipality used the same number as the former highway.

Somehow I doubt emergency services would be using the regional road numbers in Mississauga or Brampton for that matter. All the regional roads have actual names, and the addresses are based on the street names, not on the regional road number. No 911 operator is going to ask someone the regional road number, considering no one knows them. People know them as Britannia, Derry and Erin Mills Pkwy, not Regional Road 3, Regional Road 5 and Regional Road 1.

 

[lenaitch]

Somehow I doubt emergency services would be using the regional road numbers in Mississauga or Brampton for that matter. All the regional roads have actual names, and the addresses are based on the street names, not on the regional road number. No 911 operator is going to ask someone the regional road number, considering no one knows them. People know them as Britannia, Derry and Erin Mills Pkwy, not Regional Road 3, Regional Road 5 and Regional Road 1.

You could be right - I was thinking more of the rural areas. Asking a caller their address isn't always an option, or the caller isn't from the area and the chances of a call taker or dispatcher having first hand knowledge of a particular address these days is pretty remote. It all depends on how the 911 database is set up and what the screen says. Many of the north-south roads (regional and otherwise) go up into Caledon - Airport Rd. goes to Stayner and the address numbers get into six digits.

All solvable, but something else to solve, ultimately at the taxpayer's expense. It pales in comparison to how they manage to divide up regional services. Two, possibly three, new entities have to be creates where there was one. Police services come to mind.

 

[drum118]

You could be right - I was thinking more of the rural areas. Asking a caller their address isn't always an option, or the caller isn't from the area and the chances of a call taker or dispatcher having first hand knowledge of a particular address these days is pretty remote. It all depends on how the 911 database is set up and what the screen says. Many of the north-south roads (regional and otherwise) go up into Caledon - Airport Rd. goes to Stayner and the address numbers get into six digits.

All solvable, but something else to solve, ultimately at the taxpayer's expense. It pales in comparison to how they manage to divide up regional services. Two, possibly three, new entities have to be creates where there was one. Police services come to mind.

I would leave Peel Police, EMS, Peel Service and Waste as is, otherwise duplicate of service and manpower, Cost spite base on residents numbers.

Roads under Peel Control should be spite at the city limits with each city picking up its share of cost,

Na!! forget about the divorce and create the City of Peel and get rid of 2 levels of management.

 

[lenaitch]

I would leave Peel Police, EMS, Peel Service and Waste as is, otherwise duplicate of service and manpower, Cost spite base on residents numbers.

Roads under Peel Control should be spite at the city limits with each city picking up its share of cost,

Na!! forget about the divorce and create the City of Peel and get rid of 2 levels of management.

Ha! That would fall under the heading of 'be careful what you wish for'.

The more common services you leave common, does it just become 'Peel light'. It seems they would still fight over who-pays-what with the funding for remaining services.

 

[ericmacm]

I would leave Peel Police, EMS, Peel Service and Waste as is, otherwise duplicate of service and manpower, Cost spite base on residents numbers.

Roads under Peel Control should be spite at the city limits with each city picking up its share of cost,

Na!! forget about the divorce and create the City of Peel and get rid of 2 levels of management.

I agree, it should have been a merge into City of Peel with Caledon being split off into Dufferin County.

 

[turbanplanner]

I would leave Peel Police, EMS, Peel Service and Waste as is, otherwise duplicate of service and manpower, Cost spite base on residents numbers.

Roads under Peel Control should be spite at the city limits with each city picking up its share of cost,

Na!! forget about the divorce and create the City of Peel and get rid of 2 levels of management.

It's already sort of confusing. I called peel about a issue with a traffic island. Peel owns one part and the city owns another.
It never ended up getting fixed because of finger pointing

 

[Transportfan]

With Peel region now set to dissolve, this is probably the end of the Peel regional road network as well. This could go in two directions, one being the Toronto way, with no numbers for any roads. The other way is similar to Hamilton or Kawartha Lakes, with numbered routes in a single tier municipality. Personally, I feel as if no route numbers are the correct way to go, as the numbers as they are are already largely insignificant, other than former Hwy 7 and 24. Even those are probably not worth saving, because everyone knows Queen St. and Bovaird Drive, and Peel Regional Road 24 is still called "Highway 24".

edit: message 100!

The only numbered roads in Hamilton now are former highways. The regional roads are all gone.

As for Highway 7, it could be signed as a "connecting link" through Peel and York.

 

[Transportfan]

People know them as Britannia, Derry and Erin Mills Pkwy, not Regional Road 3, Regional Road 5 and Regional Road 1.

I suspect this is one of the reasons Crombie and McCallion before wanted to separate from Peel. Regional roads have lots of rural-style signage and excess sign clutter such as prominent freeway-type signage pointing to every golf course, motel, and piddly little attraction. Being in an RM infanticizes cities due to stuff like this.

 

[Transportfan]

Asking a caller their address isn't always an option, or the caller isn't from the area and the chances of a call taker or dispatcher having first hand knowledge of a particular address these days is pretty remote. It all depends on how the 911 database is set up and what the screen says. Many of the north-south roads (regional and otherwise) go up into Caledon - Airport Rd. goes to Stayner and the address numbers get into six digits.

The address numbering is different in Dufferin and Simcoe and I assume their dispatch systems are too. The highest number on Airport Rd. in Peel is 19, 054, and the lowest in Dufferin is 933,003.