Roads: Ontario/GTA Highways Discussion

[Northern Light]

For lack of a better place to put this...........given that its not about Ontario, or necessarily even highways............

The Governor of New York has indefinitely delayed the toll/congestion charge that was to be implemented on June 30th, to enter Manhattan.

That will blow a huge hole in the MTA's Capital Budget, which was predicated on the revenues from the tolls.

Controversial congestion pricing toll delayed in Manhattan

New York Gov. Kathy Hochul has indefinitely postponed the implementation of congestion pricing.

abcnews.go.com

****

To loosely tie this back to Ontario........this should have been a relatively easy sell in NYC........if it isn't flying there..........tolls may be even further off here.

 

[ericmacm]

For lack of a better place to put this...........given that its not about Ontario, or necessarily even highways............

The Governor of New York has indefinitely delayed the toll/congestion charge that was to be implemented on June 30th, to enter Manhattan.

That will blow a huge hole in the MTA's Capital Budget, which was predicated on the revenues from the tolls.

Controversial congestion pricing toll delayed in Manhattan

New York Gov. Kathy Hochul has indefinitely postponed the implementation of congestion pricing.

abcnews.go.com

****

To loosely tie this back to Ontario........this should have a relatively easy sell in NYC........if it isn't flying there..........tolls may be even further off here.

Tolls are just not a great move during a time where lots of people are struggling or walking a razor-edge financially. NYC is in an especially bad position where people and business have been leaving the city due to crazy property prices/rent and social decline that have emerged post-pandemic. An additional $15/day toll just to drive in Manhattan could easily throw a lot of people on the fence over the edge and move to somewhere like Miami or Austin.

I think Ontario is kind of different in that regard though. Toronto and other Ontario cities are all experiencing high population growth with no signs of slowing down. While the implementation of tolls would absolutely be politically unpopular (lots of people here are also struggling financially, especially since Canadian household incomes are a fair amount lower than US household incomes), it wouldn’t have the effect of pouring gasoline on a bad fire.

 

[Northern Light]

Tolls are just not a great move during a time where lots of people are struggling or walking a razor-edge financially. NYC is in an especially bad position where people and business have been leaving the city due to crazy property prices/rent and social decline that have emerged post-pandemic. An additional $15/day toll just to drive in Manhattan could easily throw a lot of people on the fence over the edge and move to somewhere like Miami or Austin.

I'm not sure I buy this.

1) If NYC declines in population (materially), then its property values and rents should decline too, improving affordability and leading to a new sustainable balance.

2)If you can afford to live in NYC and drive a car, I'm not sure a toll is the break the camel's back straw.............. but then I would add, if that was a concern, its easy enough to set a lower toll, say $5 per day, or a monthly cap.

3) How is the hole in the MTA's capital budget going to be filled? Most NYC subway stations are not accessible, many are in poor shape, along with tracks, signals and rolling stock........take away the toll revenue, its either going to be another tax (apparently on people who can't afford it), or its going to be a budget cut that fires some folks, while reducing services or benefits to others.

I think Ontario is kind of different in that regard though. Toronto and other Ontario cities are all experiencing high population growth with no signs of slowing down. While the implementation of tolls would absolutely be politically unpopular (lots of people here are also struggling financially, especially since Canadian household incomes are a fair amount lower than US household incomes), it wouldn’t have the effect of pouring gasoline on a bad fire.

Relative affordability in Toronto is no better than NYC, indeed, its worse.

Toronto is Now Less Affordable than New York and Miami

Where are the most affordable Canadian cities to live, how does Toronto compare, and how do they stack up against popular US cities?

www.hgtv.ca

 

[ericmacm]

I'm not sure I buy this.

1) If NYC declines in population (materially), then its property values and rents should decline too, improving affordability and leading to a new sustainable balance.

2)If you can afford to live in NYC and drive a car, I'm not sure a toll is the break the camel's back straw.............. but then I would add, if that was a concern, its easy enough to set a lower toll, say $5 per day, or a monthly cap.

3) How is the whole in the MTA's capital budget going to be filled? Most NYC subway stations are not accessible, many are in poor shape, along with tracks, signals and rolling stock........take away the toll revenue, its either going to be another tax (apparently on people who can't afford it), or its going to be a budget cut that fires some folks, while reducing services or benefits to others.



Relative affordability in Toronto is no better than NYC, indeed, its worse.

Toronto is Now Less Affordable than New York and Miami

Where are the most affordable Canadian cities to live, how does Toronto compare, and how do they stack up against popular US cities?

www.hgtv.ca

I don’t disagree with the idea of the tolls in principle - if any city in North America can benefit from a congestion toll, NYC is the place given the transit options available in Manhattan.

The population decline is real though. NYC has had approximately 550,000 people leave from start of COVID to the end of 2023, wiping out most of the gains (around 600,000) that the city experienced from 2010-2020, so it has effectively been stagnant for the last 14 years. I don’t think the prices for housing are ever going back down to 2010 levels though. It makes sense why they would need to implement the toll to supplement the MTA budget, but I feel that this tax is going to do the most financial damage to the people that would most likely need to use a vehicle - the people in the outer Boroughs, which also happen to have lower incomes (on average) compared to those who live in Manhattan. Under the assumption that most people leaving NYC are the ones who have lower incomes, this toll would impact them the most and could absolutely push them out.

I don’t envy NYC right now. It is difficult to face down a combination of aging transportation infrastructure and losing a huge part of your tax base over the span of 4 years.

 

[DirectionNorth]

You have to remember Hochul is not only governor of NYC, but also of Long Island, Westchester County, Upstate, etc, etc. It's the same principle as Wynne kiboshing the DVP and Gardiner tolls. Even New Jersey got in on the lawsuit action, and some of the (proposed) proceeds.

The MTA is not in an enviable position right now. They're bleeding money, the Second Avenue Subway costs a ludicrous $4.5 billion/km (in CAD), and the subway system is falling apart. If you think the TTC's in bad shape, then you'd have to wonder where the MTA could collapse to.

 

[T3G]

I truly hope that someone with vision and integrity (lol) steps up and saves the subway before it gets back to the way that it was in the 70s. It's a fantastic piece of infrastructure and deserves all the support it can get.

 

[Northern Light]

You have to remember Hochul is not only governor of NYC, but also of Long Island, Westchester County, Upstate, etc, etc. It's the same principle as Wynne kiboshing the DVP and Gardiner tolls. Even New Jersey got in on the lawsuit action, and some of the (proposed) proceeds.

I agree w/your allusion. My challenge is, if not there..........then where.........and hence the connection I drew back to Toronto, which you reinforce.

The MTA is not in an enviable position right now. They're bleeding money, the Second Avenue Subway costs a ludicrous $4.5 billion/km (in CAD), and the subway system is falling apart. If you think the TTC's in bad shape, then you'd have to wonder where the MTA could collapse to.

Its the Governor who blew a hole in the fiscal plan and who should be prepared to patch it............... if she does, the people of Westchester may be less enthused with the associated tax hike.

 

[Undead]

Under the assumption that most people leaving NYC are the ones who have lower incomes, this toll would impact them the most and could absolutely push them out.

I believe it's been relatively higher income people leaving. I'll need to dig up the source, but I remember the WSJ reported on it.

 

[Branden Simon]

There is discussions on the proposed Mohawk Rd - Hwy 403 WB ramp and widening the 2 to 3 lanes from Southcote Rd to Hwy 6 and is going to a public discussion on June 27 from 6 to 8 pm at the Ancaster Meadow Elementary School, 93 Kitty Murray Lane in Ancaster.

https://bayobserver.ca/long-talked-about-mohawk-road-403-ramp-back-for-public-discussion/
https://www.hamilton.ca/city-counci...-additional-access-brantford-bound-hwy-403-ea

 

[Haljackey]

There is discussions on the proposed Mohawk Rd - Hwy 403 WB ramp and widening the 2 to 3 lanes from Southcote Rd to Hwy 6 and is going to a public discussion on June 27 from 6 to 8 pm at the Ancaster Meadow Elementary School, 93 Kitty Murray Lane in Ancaster.

View attachment 570999View attachment 571000

https://bayobserver.ca/long-talked-about-mohawk-road-403-ramp-back-for-public-discussion/
https://www.hamilton.ca/city-counci...-additional-access-brantford-bound-hwy-403-ea

Ya this stretch needs a aux lane between Highway 6 and Lincoln at minimum. Would be even better if they 6-laned it plus a full aux lane.

For that proposed ramp, that's nice and all, but I'm sure in the meeting they're goona get asked where's the mirrored connection? If you have Mohawk to 403 WB, where's 403 EB to Mohawk? Looks like that would be a big challenge if they ever wanted to put that in- lack of planning for expansion when they built the interchange?

 

[KingJames]

Ya this stretch needs a aux lane between Highway 6 and Lincoln at minimum. Would be even better if they 6-laned it plus a full aux lane.

For that proposed ramp, that's nice and all, but I'm sure in the meeting they're goona get asked where's the mirrored connection? If you have Mohawk to 403 WB, where's 403 EB to Mohawk? Looks like that would be a big challenge if they ever wanted to put that in- lack of planning for expansion when they built the interchange?

Would be nice to put it back, , agree the mirror would super costly .

 

[innsertnamehere]

Ya this stretch needs a aux lane between Highway 6 and Lincoln at minimum. Would be even better if they 6-laned it plus a full aux lane.

For that proposed ramp, that's nice and all, but I'm sure in the meeting they're goona get asked where's the mirrored connection? If you have Mohawk to 403 WB, where's 403 EB to Mohawk? Looks like that would be a big challenge if they ever wanted to put that in- lack of planning for expansion when they built the interchange?

This ramp used to exist a long time ago and was removed in 2002-2003. 2002 satellite imagery shows it:

This stretch is a relatively easy fix with adding an AUX lane between the Linc and Hwy 6 - especially now that Hwy 6 is getting upgraded.

Even adding a southbound lane down the Escarpment would likely be fairly simple. Getting it through lower Hamilton may be a bit more challenging though..

That entire stretch of the 403 could operate a lot better with a few selective changes. The only big structural changes required to make it 6-lanes in both directions (forget about an extra climbing lane) would be the demolition of the Longwood Rd bridge, looking at streetview. There might be some substandard shoulders under a few bridges, but that's not without precedent and it's a 90km/h freeway anyway.

 

[catcher_of_cats]

If you have Mohawk to 403 WB, where's 403 EB to Mohawk? Looks like that would be a big challenge if they ever wanted to put that in- lack of planning for expansion when they built the interchange?

For those drivers that want to drive from 403EB to Mohawk/Rousseaux westbound it is quite the easy detour. First exit on LINC, cross bridge and get back on the LINC heading westbound. It takes maybe 90 seconds of your life to do this. There is no demand to spend tens of millions for a few hundred drivers. Not to mention that idiots would use this every time the highway is jammed, sending enormous traffic volume through a residential neighbourhood with single lane roads.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I truly hope that someone with vision and integrity (lol) steps up and saves the subway before it gets back to the way that it was in the 70s.

The 1970s Metro did make for some fantastic television and movie footage. Death Wish, Warriors, Saturday Night Fever, and Welcome Back Kotter. The NYC of my youth.

13 movies that capture the NYC subway as it was

Revisit the dingy days of graffiti, roving gangs and worse in BAM’s 'Retro Metro' series

www.timeout.com

 

[T3G]

The 1970s Metro did make for some fantastic television and movie footage. Death Wish, Warriors, Saturday Night Fever, and Welcome Back Kotter. The NYC of my youth.

13 movies that capture the NYC subway as it was

Revisit the dingy days of graffiti, roving gangs and worse in BAM’s 'Retro Metro' series

www.timeout.com

I venture that there is a fair bit of that general spirit alive to this day. Most notably at Chambers Street on the J/Z. Then there are of course all the abandoned stations.