Johnny Au
Senior Member
"Following too closely" can be interpreted as "driving too slowly" and yes, that would lead to demerit points.
|
|
|
Roads: Increase Ontario 400-series Highway Speed Limit
- Thread starter chrison
- Start date
crs1026
Superstar
The issue is that neither the police nor the traffic courts enforce "small" speeding amounts. Demerit points aren't applied for under 16 km/h over the limit, and police routinely write larger offenses down to that level. As does the Crown at pre-trial. The whole system is pretty jaded and no one wants to appear "picky" about small stuff. Our culture really breeds speeding as a norm.
There are many jurisdictions in the US where police enforce at as little as 8km over the limit, and where the fines and points deduction begin immediately at that level. The police system is so granular in the US that you are never sure what local cop - or local judge - will handle your case, and one doesn't assume leniency - if anything one doesn't want to tangle with the system at all. It's not necessarily a pretty system, but it does produce safer drivers. Outside of urban centers, where freeways can be crazy, I see far fewer aggressive drivers when I drive in the US. A little fear can be a good thing sometimes.
Personally, I do believe that raising the limits in Ontario will lead to even higher speed driving, unless we address this culture when we raise the limits. Start the demerits at 125 km/h, use photo radar intensively and set it at 125 km/h. Reeducate the police, curb their discretion, and give direction to the courts in the law so enforcement stays focussed.
- Paul
innsertnamehere
Superstar
^its variable on the system. Cops are more likely to enforce the speeding in situations where it matters - i.e. in the city. If you are dinged for going 20 over on Bathurst Street in downtown, you are far more likely to get points than getting dinged for 20 over on Bathurst in rural Oak Ridges.
Keep photo radar off of highways in general. On limited access freeways that are up to modern standards, speed doesn't matter too much - what matters is the speed of traffic. The difference between 120 and 140 on the 407 really isn't that much - the issue is speed differentials. Only downside is way worse gas mileage.
It is of course very dependent on the highway, but there are plenty of spots on the 400 series highways that 140+km/h is very safe. Enforcing a strict limit everywhere is silly, especially at 120km/h.. That sort of speed on the 407 puts you in the right lane getting passed by 90% of traffic.
Keep photo radar off of highways in general. On limited access freeways that are up to modern standards, speed doesn't matter too much - what matters is the speed of traffic. The difference between 120 and 140 on the 407 really isn't that much - the issue is speed differentials. Only downside is way worse gas mileage.
It is of course very dependent on the highway, but there are plenty of spots on the 400 series highways that 140+km/h is very safe. Enforcing a strict limit everywhere is silly, especially at 120km/h.. That sort of speed on the 407 puts you in the right lane getting passed by 90% of traffic.
narduch
Senior Member
You wouldn't even be able to have 120 km/h in the 416. And possible for most of the 905 area either. It needs to be in open areas with little interchanges.
It seems almost pointless to raise the limits.
It seems almost pointless to raise the limits.
crs1026
Superstar
I can buy most of that - but I wonder if people can process such a variable standard. The cop knows why they are taking a hard line in one case, and not the other.....but does the average driver? The posted speed limit should be a signal of this.
I do disagree with your statement that 120 vs 140 doesn't matter. The difference in braking distance is considerable. People who have driven an autobahn at unrestricted speed have told me that they were surprised at how fast they were still travelling after a couple seconds' worth of hard braking. Reaction and braking time creates an absolute limit, regardless of traffic speed.
- Paul
Woodbridge_Heights
Senior Member
The idea that there is a set limit over the posted speed that can be ticketed is stupid. Just think about it. 16 Km/h over in a 40 Km/h zone is 56 Km/h, and in some 40 Km/h zones that is quite clearly too fast (residential zone, school zone, areas with blind turns intersections etc. Meanwhile 16 Km/h over in a 100 Km/h zone is 116 Km/h and logically is less egregious than doing 56 in a 40.
Speed fines should somehow be related to the zone in which the infraction occurred, either through % of limit over, or different penalties for infractions in different speed zones.
Speed fines should somehow be related to the zone in which the infraction occurred, either through % of limit over, or different penalties for infractions in different speed zones.
MisterF
Senior Member
I said right in my last post that other things can change with the speed limit, so none of what you're saying contradicts my point. Police enforcement can definitely get stricter with higher limits and so can demerit points.
Yes we've bred a culture of speeding but a big reason for that is that our speed limits are so much lower than what the roads are designed for. People don't follow speed limit signs, they drive whatever speed feels natural. On roads where the speed limit is near the design speed of the road, speeding is much less of a problem.
This isn't a hypothetical scenario. Almost the entire world has higher speed limits than Ontario, including other provinces in Canada.
crs1026
Superstar
Agreed. The thresholds for enforcement on a 400 series highway can and should be different than for a school zone.
But - if we say we want to raise the 400 limits closer to what the road was built for, we need to be less tolerant of speeding beyond that point. I would key these to absolute speeds, not to a differential, so everyone gets the point and hears the same message.
- Paul
W. K. Lis
Superstar
If trucks are required to have speed limiters (or governors), set at 105 km/h, then why not for automobiles and motorcycles. Set them at 5 km/h over the new maximum (125 km/h?). Only allow EMS and police to just record that went over the maximum.
cplchanb
Senior Member
The primary reason for the governors in the first place was for GHG reductions with safety and fuel economy as secondary factors. The difference is that the trucking is a commercially regulated industry so they fall under heavy scrutiny. Besides, the automobile industry will never allow this
crs1026
Superstar
It's already common for commercial fleet vehicles to be equipped with GPS based systems that detect speed violations and report them to the company via cell. They will even detect and report panic stops and out-of-bounds events..... like parking the company truck in an LCBO parking lot.
In other settings I would cry privacy and Big Brother - but for commercial trucking or even driving private vehicles, I'm a bit of a hawk. Driving is a privilege, not a right.....if your car rats you out, tough luck. Suck it up and be accountable.
- Paul
Johnny Au
Senior Member
Bizarre news: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toron...-400-after-game-of-grand-theft-auto-1.3870359
Discussion: https://www.reddit.com/r/toronto/comments/5f89jr/11_yo_boy_steals_parents_car_and_goes_for_joyride/
The boy's parents should have read the ESRB rating and not bow down to peer pressure or media pressure.
Good news: he didn't go on the 407.
Discussion: https://www.reddit.com/r/toronto/comments/5f89jr/11_yo_boy_steals_parents_car_and_goes_for_joyride/
The boy's parents should have read the ESRB rating and not bow down to peer pressure or media pressure.
Good news: he didn't go on the 407.
Last edited:
micheal_can
Senior Member
There are several concerns I have with raising the speed limit:
1) There is no "Keep Right" law. So, those centre lane hogs are a problem. Before raising the speed, there must be a law, and enforcement of the law to keep right.
2) Speed fines. Getting a $100 fine is not going to deter drivers. How about we look at the 50km/hr over $10,000 fine as an example. Set the 10 over at $1000. Each 10 over above that, $1000. So, fines would be 10 - $1000, 20 - $2000, 30 - $3000, 40 - $4000, 50 - $10,000.
3) Fencing. There are parts of Highways 400, 401, 404, 416, and 417, and more that do not have adequate fencing to keep animals off the road. Braking hard for animals is not a good thing.
4) Mandatory winter tires for all Ontario vehicles. Part of the problem is that when a flake of snow falls, many drivers go unnecessarily slow. Had they put winter tires on, they would not need to slow down quite so much.
I have drive in BC on the highways when they changed the speed limits. I have driven across Canada in the provinces that have 110km/hr speed limits. There are laws in place that make it safer (keep right and winter tires required).
1) There is no "Keep Right" law. So, those centre lane hogs are a problem. Before raising the speed, there must be a law, and enforcement of the law to keep right.
2) Speed fines. Getting a $100 fine is not going to deter drivers. How about we look at the 50km/hr over $10,000 fine as an example. Set the 10 over at $1000. Each 10 over above that, $1000. So, fines would be 10 - $1000, 20 - $2000, 30 - $3000, 40 - $4000, 50 - $10,000.
3) Fencing. There are parts of Highways 400, 401, 404, 416, and 417, and more that do not have adequate fencing to keep animals off the road. Braking hard for animals is not a good thing.
4) Mandatory winter tires for all Ontario vehicles. Part of the problem is that when a flake of snow falls, many drivers go unnecessarily slow. Had they put winter tires on, they would not need to slow down quite so much.
I have drive in BC on the highways when they changed the speed limits. I have driven across Canada in the provinces that have 110km/hr speed limits. There are laws in place that make it safer (keep right and winter tires required).
W. K. Lis
Superstar
I would have to include wildlife bridges and tunnels.
Maybe even bicycle wildlife highway crossings, to avoid the long ride to highway crossings.
BurlOak
Senior Member
Does wildlife share the sidewalk with pedestrians or do they share the bike path?Maybe even bicycle wildlife highway crossings, to avoid the long ride to highway crossings.