Roads: GTA West Corridor—Highway 413

[just east of the creek]

Reading Andrew Clark of the Globe and Mail remotely from a location distant from the GTA was a joy today as he neatly advocated for road tolls to be widespread on high capacity, and over capacity 400 series highway - so the 401/400/427/410/413 (if they ever build it). This is a measure that is long overdue. Tolls can be easy to administer, can make a significant offset to maintenance and building costs, can add to the pool of money being directed to regional transit, and can help people make better decisions about how they are going to commute (to work mainly), where they might live, who they may want to work for etc etc

It’s time. I would rather pay the direct tax of a road toll, rather than the additional general taxes tacked on by Dougie and his dudes and mismanaged by the ever expanding snow job of the provincial bureaucracy.

 

[Deadpool X]

I prefer having tolls but not at the same rates as 407 or even 407 East. Also, the toll price should be dynamic based on traffic patterns. For the times when the traffic is free flowing, there should not be any toll. This will incentivize people to either change their driving pattern or move to transit, both of which are good.

I would also suggest downtown congestion pricing.

 

[afransen]

Reading Andrew Clark of the Globe and Mail remotely from a location distant from the GTA was a joy today as he neatly advocated for road tolls to be widespread on high capacity, and over capacity 400 series highway - so the 401/400/427/410/413 (if they ever build it). This is a measure that is long overdue. Tolls can be easy to administer, can make a significant offset to maintenance and building costs, can add to the pool of money being directed to regional transit, and can help people make better decisions about how they are going to commute (to work mainly), where they might live, who they may want to work for etc etc

It’s time. I would rather pay the direct tax of a road toll, rather than the additional general taxes tacked on by Dougie and his dudes and mismanaged by the ever expanding snow job of the provincial bureaucracy.

This piece?

Driving in America is better because of road tolls

Canada has some of the worst traffic in the world and yet political parties at all levels and in virtually every province oppose tolls

www.theglobeandmail.com

We need to bypass the people who insist that tolls can only be implemented when every single person has a high quality transit based alternative to their trip. That day will never come. We need tolls anyway. It's like saying we shouldn't charge for electricity or water until every single person has a way of making their own independently of the utility system.

 

[afransen]

I prefer having tolls but not at the same rates as 407 or even 407 East. Also, the toll price should be dynamic based on traffic patterns. For the times when the traffic is free flowing, there should not be any toll. This will incentivize people to either change their driving pattern or move to transit, both of which are good.

I would also suggest downtown congestion pricing.

Both are sensible suggestions.

I wonder if, once Advance Driver Assistance Systems/vehicular autonomy becomes more widespread if we will see a decline in collisions on highways, and their resulting congestion. It really should happen, but it will be hard to stop cowboy drivers from engaging in reckless maneuvers unless ADAS systems are mandated to be used. ADAS already works quite well on highways and I suspect if you cut down on unnecessary lane changes traffic would flow much better.

 

[Wm Perkins Bull]

I prefer having tolls but not at the same rates as 407 or even 407 East. Also, the toll price should be dynamic based on traffic patterns. For the times when the traffic is free flowing, there should not be any toll. This will incentivize people to either change their driving pattern or move to transit, both of which are good.

I would also suggest downtown congestion pricing.

The pent up demand for the 401 is enormous, the required toll to bring the most congested sections up to an average of 50 km/h in rush hour would be significant, and likely reach Highway 407 East (non-ETR) pricing.

 

[just east of the creek]

I prefer having tolls but not at the same rates as 407 or even 407 East. Also, the toll price should be dynamic based on traffic patterns. For the times when the traffic is free flowing, there should not be any toll. This will incentivize people to either change their driving pattern or move to transit, both of which are good.

I would also suggest downtown congestion pricing.

I have no issues with any of these suggestions and fully agree with congestion charging.

 

[kamira51]

Moving at free-flow and moving faster than without the freeway are two very, very different things.

Most of the traffic savings from the 413 are expected to be diverted traffic off of arterials roads in Peel and York Regions, where traffic is much slower speed and gets caught at large, long signals. Even if you are traveling at an average of 40km/h on the 413 (a very congested average speed for a freeway), you will still be travelling significantly faster than driving all the way down Mississauga Road to the 401 from Mayfield, for example, or all the way across Major Mackenzie from the 427.

The 413 is not expected to make major differences on congestion levels on existing freeways in the region (albeit small differences), but will offer more direct paths for driver which will create time savings for drivers using the highway itself.

The big travel time savings on existing corridors needs widening of the existing corridors themselves, a la the 401 widening through Mississauga.

It would benefit me personally because of my work, being able to drive around Brampton instead of through it would be a fantastic option.

 

[Bojaxs]

Don't we already pay a toll for our highways in the form of the "gas tax"?

I think @Wm Perkins Bull is correct. Demand to drive on the 401 is so great which causes it to be congested all the time. The 401 is used heavily by Americans and Quebecois. It's the main freight artery for the entire Ontario/ Quebec region, also to a degree the American mid-west.

 

[afransen]

The pent up demand for the 401 is enormous, the required toll to bring the most congested sections up to an average of 50 km/h in rush hour would be significant, and likely reach Highway 407 East (non-ETR) pricing.

Ok.

Sounds like there would be lots of motivated new customers for GO Express buses that would actually be able to achieve decent speeds.

 

[afransen]

Don't we already pay a toll for our highways in the form of the "gas tax"?

I think @Wm Perkins Bull is correct. Demand to drive on the 401 is so great which causes it to be congested all the time. The 401 is used heavily by Americans and Quebecois. It's the main freight artery for the entire Ontario/ Quebec region, also to a degree the American mid-west.

A few thoughts:

• If the gas tax represents a toll, it is demonstrably too low to manage congestion on the 401. So raise it. If we want to be more surgical, then implement road tolls.
• If the 401 was tolled heavily, perhaps that would shift some travel demand for long distance through traffic to the 407. Right now the to drive from 401/407 to the east end of the 407 is about $50-60 for a light vehicle and $160-200 for a truck. For those prices, through-traffic is willing to lose an hour contributing to congestion on the 401. If 401 tolls were half the 407, the price differential is smaller.

It is insane for us to have an asset like the 401 that could be a valuable high speed connector for a region of millions basically reach failure every day. If we are content with 30 kph average speeds we just need arterials, not limited access highways. It's a bit like having Line 1 be free to use and then being overloaded, with people holding doors and slowing boarding increasing dwell time and reducing capacity.

 

[Bojaxs]

A few thoughts:

• If the gas tax represents a toll, it is demonstrably too low to manage congestion on the 401. So raise it. If we want to be more surgical, then implement road tolls.
• If the 401 was tolled heavily, perhaps that would shift some travel demand for long distance through traffic to the 407. Right now the to drive from 401/407 to the east end of the 407 is about $50-60 for a light vehicle and $160-200 for a truck. For those prices, through-traffic is willing to lose an hour contributing to congestion on the 401. If 401 tolls were half the 407, the price differential is smaller.

It is insane for us to have an asset like the 401 that could be a valuable high speed connector for a region of millions basically reach failure every day. If we are content with 30 kph average speeds we just need arterials, not limited access highways.

There shouldn't be a toll for freight trucks on the 401. Otherwise we'll see the costs of goods on the store shelves go up.

I would rather see the provincial government work towards establishing the Midtown GO train line and the 407 GO bus transitway before we start implementing tolls on 400 series highways.

 

[afransen]

There shouldn't be a toll for freight trucks on the 401. Otherwise we'll see the costs of goods on the store shelves go up.

I would rather see the provincial government work towards establishing the Midtown GO train line and the 407 GO bus transitway before we start implementing tolls on 400 series highways.

Do you think that would actually fix the 401? Those are laudable ideas, but the reality is that the 401 would remain in a state of daily failure. Toronto has some of the worst congestion in the world and it is strangling the city's economy. I'd be more worried about that than the cost for businesses to move goods around. Businesses make many dollars and cents decisions about where to locate, and right now the incentive is to decamp further and further away from the city and drive in.

By the way, $200 on a truckload of typical low value consumer goods is 0.5% cost increase. It might be a bigger increase for such low value goods as bottled water (maybe 3%) but perhaps penalizing trucking low value products long distances on congested highways is a feature not a bug.

 

[nfitz]

There shouldn't be a toll for freight trucks on the 401. Otherwise we'll see the costs of goods on the store shelves go up.

Would it? For employees with cars, the time saving by taking 407 is reducing employer costs, not increasing.

If the time to drive across Toronto is divided in two, then I'd think many trucking companies wouldn't see a big cost increase, and likely a cost decrease for local trucks that use the highway multiple times a day.

 

[Bojaxs]

Would it? For employees with cars, the time saving by taking 407 is reducing employer costs, not increasing.

If the time to drive across Toronto is divided in two, then I'd think many trucking companies wouldn't see a big cost increase, and likely a cost decrease for local trucks that use the highway multiple times a day.

Trucking is priced at "$/km". A toll would increase this. If tolls weren't a factor and the time savings offset the toll costs, then how come to this day we see most trucks opting to get bogged down on the 401 instead of paying the toll to fly across the 407?

 

[nfitz]

Trucking is priced at "$/km". A toll would increase this. If tolls weren't a factor and the time savings offset the toll costs, then how come to this day we see most trucks opting to get bogged down on the 401 instead of paying the toll to fly across the 407?

That's a good point.