innsertnamehere
Superstar
Mods can we get this thread title updated? This hasn't been planned to run from Guelph for probably 5 years now.
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Ward8
Active Member
In fairness, the crosstown is the first new transit line since the Sheppard line opened. thats 19 years and counting. Before tolling starts, it takes massive capitol investments to build these things. The 400 series highways have consistently been widened and expanded at enormous cost while the transit file has accrued a service deficit so large it will take 30B-50B (according to the province) to catch up. The gardiner hybrid debacle is set to take up most of Torontos capital budget for a decade. We've put roads and highways before transit for eighty years. The Eglinton line opening is an asymmetrical comparison to the 407, 407 extension, 412 and 418 opening from the time they decided to fill in the original Eglinton line. How resources are divided is a perfectly reasonable argument against the 413.
Woodbridge_Heights
Senior Member
It would be interesting to see how many km lanes of highway have been been built or expanded/added compared to kms of transit lines (regional rail, subway, lrt)
afransen
Senior Member
I think the either/or conversation is not helpful. Ideally we at least protect the ROW for this highway. At some point, even if it is in 50 years, we will need to build it. We can plan ahead. In the mean while, it would be great if we could start also protecting ROWs for regional rail transit, before we build the sprawl. If we are sure that regional rail is going to be essential for urban mobility in the future, all new greenfield development plans should facilitate adding regional rail cost effectively. That means preserving surface ROWs and ideally building roads that cross it in such a way to make grade separation easy. I don't think that the grid arterial system with all the intensity on the edges and lowest density in the middle of the blocks is a great way to built communities. People don't want to live on loud, dangerous arterials. Let arterials be arterials. No driveways, few intersections, and they don't need to be particularly pedestrian or cyclist friendly. Make a parallel network for cyclists and pedestrians that is still direct, but more pleasant for these active uses. The North American pattern of development is so f-ed that even when we think we are fixing it, by putting cycle lanes and sidewalks on arterial roads, we are still getting it horribly wrong. A road can never be a good 'place'. It is a traffic sewer. Let them be good at that role, and create streets that make it easy for pedestrians and cyclists to get around safely and directly, make it easy to cross these arterials with grade separations or high quality crossings, and have uses along that street that make for pleasant places. Trying to do both is just making 'stroads' (street roads) that are dangerous and unpleasant and we will be unsuccessful in making them urban. It just won't work. The arterial network should be more like a series of ring roads around complete communities with rapid transit at the core of each block.
At the end of the day, it is wishful thinking that we can completely cease sprawl. We will need to continue to develop greenfields, but we can also try to make them dense, transit oriented complete communities from inception. Even if we were to allow missing middle in all 'yellow belt' SFH zones (and we should), it still would not be enough to meet the critical need for housing in the region.
At the end of the day, it is wishful thinking that we can completely cease sprawl. We will need to continue to develop greenfields, but we can also try to make them dense, transit oriented complete communities from inception. Even if we were to allow missing middle in all 'yellow belt' SFH zones (and we should), it still would not be enough to meet the critical need for housing in the region.
Deadpool X
Senior Member
I wouldn't call this a mega highway. Every major highway will then become a mega highway. 401 should then be classified as a super giga ultra highway.
allengeorge
Senior Member
I mean. It is the busiest highway in North America, and up there in terms of the widest. So yeah, maybe "super giga ultra" is a good moniker.
Edit: From my quick research as to the widest highways in NA:
- Katy Freeway: 26 lanes
- 401: 22 lanes (at some points)
- NJ Turnpike: 18 lanes (at some points)
innsertnamehere
Superstar
Katy isn't 26 freeway lanes, that number includes the service roads that are common in Texas.
The 401 is the widest highway on the planet in terms of "through lanes". There are 18 lanes, 9 in each direction, between the 427 and 403/410. I have been unable to locate another highway that wide globally. There may be one in China somewhere or something but they tend to build more roads instead of wider ones. There aren't many freeways more than 8 lanes wide there.
That said, Houston is about to start reconstruction of their downtown freeway loop, removing 1/4 of it and redirecting traffic onto the other side of the loop. As a part of this, they are going to build a highway with 22 through lanes. So it will be actually wider.
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Woodbridge_Heights
Senior Member
Wow, just look at those two massive swaths in the NE and NW sections of the city. Merica!Katy isn't 26 freeway lanes, that number includes the service roads that are common in Texas.
The 401 is the widest highway on the planet in terms of "through lanes". There are 18 lanes, 9 in each direction, between the 427 and 403/410. I have been unable to locate another highway that wide globally. There may be one in China somewhere or something but they tend to build more roads instead of wider ones. There aren't many freeways more than 8 lanes wide there.
That said, Houston is about to start reconstruction of their downtown freeway loop, removing 1/4 of it and redirecting traffic onto the other side of the loop. As a part of this, they are going to build a highway with 22 through lanes. So it will be actually wider.
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innsertnamehere
Superstar
They are at least planning on capping the widest part with a park, but yea. Texas is something else. I consider it at least a partial win as it reconnects midtown with the downtown with the removal of I-45, and shifts I-69 from an elevated expressway to a trenched expressway, which is generally nicer to cross.
Scotian
New Member
We spent a $billion+ just upgrading Union Station. We replaced the entire signal system on the TTC. There's shovels in the ground for Finch West. There was the YUS extension into Vaughan. They retrofitted a bunch of old stations to have better access for the disabled. A big chunk of the legwork for the RER was done. UPX. Extensions of the GO to Barrie, Kitchener, Hamilton, Niagara Falls. The K-W LRT. St. Clair streetcar ROW. The new streetcars & the new barn at Ashbridges Bay. Mississauga LRT. The entire VIVA system. A new LRT line in Ottawa. New parking garages at half the GO stations out there.
I wish they had done more with transit too but there's been a lot of transit work done in the past 20 years and there continues to be. They can be done concurrently and without negatively impacting one another.
Allandale25
Senior Member
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Coolstar
Senior Member
Toronto City council passed a motion to oppose Highway 413. Holyday was the only one who voted no.
Holyday's bizarre reasoning.
Holyday's bizarre reasoning.
TRONto
Active Member
This has nothing directly to do with the city of Toronto. Do the councillors have a lot of free time?
DirectionNorth
Active Member
Think about it. If cities in the GTA are starting to pass motions against this highway, that probably says something about the popularity of the highway. Mississauga, Vaughan, and Toronto all oppose it.
ADRM
Senior Member
Except that it really, really does -- call me crazy but I think people in Toronto care about things like housing affordability, traffic congestion, greenhouse gas emissions, the impacts of urban sprawl, waste of their tax dollars, and so on.
It is flatly excellent news that an array of municipalities that stand to be directly negatively impacted by this mess of a proposal have stood up and called out the massive folly of it.