Roads: Gardiner Expressway

[Euphoria]

Sorry for the multiple posts, but I found this article pertinent regarding U.S. toll tunnels:

5 Highest Tunnel Tolls
Lincoln and Holland Tunnel

Where: New York Toll: $13 collected one-way Length: 7,482 ft and 8,558 ft respectively

Did you know that there are only 12 toll-collecting tunnels in the United States, and 4 of them are in New York City? Not surprisingly, two of them are tied for the most expensive. Entering Manhattan by the Lincoln or Holland tunnel will set you back $13 cash. Fortunately, the ride back is free.

Anton Anderson Memorial Tunnel

Where: Alaska Toll: $12 Length: 2.5 Miles

The close runner-up for most expensive toll tunnel is the Anton Anderson Memorial Tunnel in Whittier, Alaska. At 13,300 ft, the AAMT or simply “Whittier Tunnel” as it is sometimes called, is the second longest tunnel in North America. Whittier collects a $12 toll per car one-way, in the east bound direction.

Fort McHenry Tunnel

Where: Maryland Toll: $8 round trip Length: 1.5 Miles

The Fort McHenry Tunnel passes 1.5 miles, or 7,920 feet underneath Patapsco River in Maryland. Over 44 million cars pass through the tunnel every year, paying $4 each way. You do the math.

Brooklyn Battery Tunnel and Queens Midtown Tunnel

Where: New York Toll: $7.50 only one-way Length: 9,117 ft and 6,414 ft respectively

Manhattan doubles its population during business days from everyone who commutes for work. To support that amount of traffic, the city has an extensive network of bridges and tunnels. The Brooklyn Battery tunnel connects Brooklyn to the southernmost tip of Manhattan. It’s also the longest underwater tunnel in North America. The Queens Midtown tunnel, where Tommy Lee Jones and Will Smith rode upside-down in a Ford Crown Vic in the movie Men In Black, connects Queens and and Midtown. The both carry hefty one-way tolls of $7.50.

Final Thoughts
Although the original purpose of collecting tolls was to pay for the construction and maintenance of the road structure itself, that’s no longer the case. The MTA claims that 60% of the revenue from tolls goes towards subsidizing mass transit in New York City. Furthermore, the New Jersey Turnpike collects more revenue from tolls than any other road in North America, nearly $1 Billion dollars in 2012. That’s more than the entire cost to build the Fort McHenry tunnel in the 1980’s.

 

[LNahid2000]

Where: New York Toll: $13 collected one-way Length: 7,482 ft and 8,558 ft respectively

$2.66/km

Where: Alaska Toll: $12 Length: 2.5 Miles

$1.50/km

Where: Maryland Toll: $8 round trip Length: 1.5 Miles

$1.67/km

Where: New York Toll: $7.50 only one-way Length: 9,117 ft and 6,414 ft respectively

$1.58/km


Do you really think your 50 cent per km toll is going to be enough to fund both the highway and transit?

 

[Euphoria]

No, you're right. However, the list above is of the most expensive toll tunnels in the U.S.. $1.25-1.50/km sounds more realistic for what I'm proposing in Toronto. The tunnels mentioned above were hard to engineer under water, though that factor is offset by the funding the tolls in Toronto would provide for subway tunnelling. I would not use tolls to fund subway operating costs once the subway is up and running. Subway equipment and maintenance should not be included, as they are not managed by the operator of the toll highway. I think the most viable place to test this idea is on the Allen Expressway, continuing it south of Eglinton to the Gardiner around Strachan. This would deliver us the western leg of the DRL and opens the possibility of some day complimenting this north-south route with an underground east-west expressway to the DVP, making the elevated Gardiner redundant. I don't think an underground toll replacement for the Gardiner is palatable right now due to the price tag for drivers, but extending the Allen adds transit and highway infrastructure and lays foundation infrastructure for longer term city planning goals without raising taxes. This by-pass to the core also creates opportunities for intermodal transfer between autos, trains, and subway. Such an intermodal station has been proposed around Bathurst and Front. This project can be constructed as a stand alone subway line. The City can hem and haw and fret over how to fund its first phase of the DRL, which is really only half a line. Eventually that line would meet this one, ideally in its first phase. A one-way car trip between Eglinton, where the tolls begin, and the Gardiner, where they end, at around $1.35/km, would put the cost at just under $10.00. That doesn't seem outrageous. Traffic is worsening. Enough drivers will pay. Anyway, let the owner/operator charge what the market will bear. We're not adding tolls to any existing highway.

 

[dunkalunk]

Euphoria, I just want to clarify, where does your Highway/Subway tunnel run? It seems like you're talking about two different tunnels. an extension of the Allen and a replacement of the Gardiner somewhere under downtown.

Even with underground highways, there are still land acquisition cost for necessary items such as ramp access, ventilation and emergency exits.

 

[Euphoria]

You're right, some land acquisition is necessary, but as I've said before, keep the on/off ramps simple one-lane merges, such that the expressway itself would only be two lanes in each direction plus a service/exit lane in each direction. The exit simply climbs to the surface where it continues for about 200 metres as a merge lane. That lane, after the merge, could be used for on-street parking. The surface streets have to be at least three lanes wide in each direction to make this possible, which is why Adelaide and Richmond streets work so well. Both streets are roughly four lanes wide, so that even the bike lanes could be retained. That's of course if we're talking about replacing the Gardiner. I don't think we're ready for that, because it would require replacing the Gardiner with a toll route. On another thread I discussed this idea at length. The graphic below gives a rough idea:

I proposed the above as a means of combining tunneling of the DRL with construction of a buried Gardiner (before the City confirmed the DRL alignment and station locations). I still believe there is potential savings in combining the tunneling of the Gardiner and the DRL, but many on here believe the scale of the tunneling required through the core would be very difficult. I also recognize that replacing the Gardiner with a toll highway is a tall order right now. You could have a private interest construct the toll tunnel anyway and keep the Gardiner elevated for now, which would add highway capacity and help pay for the DRL, but I think this is too complex a project to receive wide-scale advocacy right now, especially considering the level of commitment to the Gardiner Hybrid option and the City's plans for the first phase of the DRL (although DRL planning seems to be getting a six month extension).

That leaves the Allen Expressway/subway extension as the most viable tunneling project, since it doesn't interfere with any existing approved plans, yet it could interface with a whole range of different future plans for the Gardiner and the DRL. We could still deck and develop over the existing Allen, but we could complete the original vision of a north-south expressway without destroying the fabric of the city, which would've happened with the Spadina Expressway. In fact, we'd end up with an additional subway line in the mix. If it worked well, this could become a model for burying expressways and funding large rapid transit projects.

Potential rough alignment for the Allen underground: Tunnel under existing roads and parks, such as Winnett, followed by Arlington, and Hillcrest Park, then curve into Christie Pits. Basically follow the alignment of buried Garrison Creek. That means you get stations at St. Clair and Arlington, Christie Station (overlap with the existing Bloor-Danforth station), Grace and College (or thereabouts), Dundas and Grace, Gore Vale and Queen (Trinity Bellwoods). There are streetcar stops at each of these points where the DRL would intersect with east-west streetcar lines. Finally, have the final subway stops on this western stretch of the DRL route back onto Queen/Richmond at Trinity Bellwoods (a branch of the DRL could still continue west eventually at Queen). There are a number of parks that form a rough north-south axis along the now extinct Garrison Creek (Cedervale, Wychwood, Christie Pits, Bickford Park, Trinity Bellwoods, Stanley Park, Garrison Common). Of course the on/off ramps always have to merge with a street that’s three lanes wide flowing in the same direction as the expressway beneath it, if only for the distance of the merge.

 

[salsa]

Sorry for the multiple posts, but I found this article pertinent regarding U.S. toll tunnels:

5 Highest Tunnel Tolls
Lincoln and Holland Tunnel

Where: New York Toll: $13 collected one-way Length: 7,482 ft and 8,558 ft respectively

Did you know that there are only 12 toll-collecting tunnels in the United States, and 4 of them are in New York City? Not surprisingly, two of them are tied for the most expensive. Entering Manhattan by the Lincoln or Holland tunnel will set you back $13 cash. Fortunately, the ride back is free.

Anton Anderson Memorial Tunnel

Where: Alaska Toll: $12 Length: 2.5 Miles

The close runner-up for most expensive toll tunnel is the Anton Anderson Memorial Tunnel in Whittier, Alaska. At 13,300 ft, the AAMT or simply “Whittier Tunnel” as it is sometimes called, is the second longest tunnel in North America. Whittier collects a $12 toll per car one-way, in the east bound direction.

Fort McHenry Tunnel

Where: Maryland Toll: $8 round trip Length: 1.5 Miles

The Fort McHenry Tunnel passes 1.5 miles, or 7,920 feet underneath Patapsco River in Maryland. Over 44 million cars pass through the tunnel every year, paying $4 each way. You do the math.

Brooklyn Battery Tunnel and Queens Midtown Tunnel

Where: New York Toll: $7.50 only one-way Length: 9,117 ft and 6,414 ft respectively

Manhattan doubles its population during business days from everyone who commutes for work. To support that amount of traffic, the city has an extensive network of bridges and tunnels. The Brooklyn Battery tunnel connects Brooklyn to the southernmost tip of Manhattan. It’s also the longest underwater tunnel in North America. The Queens Midtown tunnel, where Tommy Lee Jones and Will Smith rode upside-down in a Ford Crown Vic in the movie Men In Black, connects Queens and and Midtown. The both carry hefty one-way tolls of $7.50.

Final Thoughts
Although the original purpose of collecting tolls was to pay for the construction and maintenance of the road structure itself, that’s no longer the case. The MTA claims that 60% of the revenue from tolls goes towards subsidizing mass transit in New York City. Furthermore, the New Jersey Turnpike collects more revenue from tolls than any other road in North America, nearly $1 Billion dollars in 2012. That’s more than the entire cost to build the Fort McHenry tunnel in the 1980’s.

Do you realize that the only way to enter Manhattan is to use a bridge or tunnel? Imposing those same expensive tolls on the gardiner will only encourage motorists to switch to using city streets in order to avoid the toll.

 

[Euphoria]

I agree with you that we aren't ready to replace existing roads with underground toll roads. I worry that we'll get tolls on the roads we already have, additional fees with no improvements to show for them.

 

[LNahid2000]

Do you realize that the only way to enter Manhattan is to use a bridge or tunnel? Imposing those same expensive tolls on the gardiner will only encourage motorists to switch to using city streets in order to avoid the toll.

Yep, Euphoria is using irrelevant examples as usual.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I agree with you that we aren't ready to replace existing roads with underground toll roads. I worry that we'll get tolls on the roads we already have, additional fees with no improvements to show for them.

What's the fear, especially considering how much it cost to keep what there is up and in a state of good repair.

AoD

 

[ADRM]

What's the fear, especially considering how much it cost to keep what there is up and in a state of good repair.

AoD

Yes - that, and the fact that reducing the share of vehicular traffic on existing roads is one of the only practical methods for reducing congestion. If some sort of tolling system had the net effect of moving people from single occupancy vehicles to public transit options of different sorts, that could be considered a successful policy outcome.

I agree that a diversion of traffic from busier routes to local streets isn't desirable, but there are policy-based and practical mitigations/limitations (namely, simply an offloading of congestion) that could be applied to that problem.

 

[Euphoria]

There should not be ANY tolls added to existing roads, as we already pay for these through existing taxes, unless existing taxes are rolled back. Stop the tax grabs. Our cost of living is high enough. Let those who choose the convenience pay for NEW tolled roads, as long as they're buried and help fund transit. As for the examples I provided of toll tunnels in the U.S., they are very relevant to the discussion, as these tolls were set up to pay for dedicated infrastructure. As mentioned later in the article, in many cases a portion of the tunnel tolls are being used to fund transit. I find it bizarre that some bloggers on here who have advocated for London-style road charges or ways to sock it to visitors who come into the city to spend money are critical of my proposal, which only provides ADDITIONAL commute options. I could look at examples of tunneling in Montreal, but it's harder to parse out the costs versus user charges, as these projects are built and maintained by taxes rather than tolls. Also, every city is different in terms of traffic patterns, geography, geology, economic conditions, etc. You will not find a perfect example in another city of expressway tunneling that could be grafted onto Toronto. We would need to conduct our own EA, geological survey, traffic modeling, and so forth. Every project is unique, especially if it's innovative.

 

[ADRM]

There should not be ANY tolls added to existing roads, as we already pay for these through existing taxes, unless existing taxes are rolled back. Stop the tax grabs. Our cost of living is high enough. Let those who choose the convenience pay for NEW tolled roads, as long as they're buried and help fund transit. As for the examples I provided of toll tunnels in the U.S., they are very relevant to the discussion, as these tolls were set up to pay for dedicated infrastructure. As mentioned later in the article, in many cases a portion of the tunnel tolls are being used to fund transit. I find it bizarre that some bloggers on here who have advocated for London-style road charges or ways to sock it to visitors who come into the city to spend money are critical of my proposal, which only provides ADDITIONAL commute options. I could look at examples of tunneling in Montreal, but it's harder to parse out the costs versus user charges, as these projects are built and maintained by taxes rather than tolls. Also, every city is different in terms of traffic patterns, geography, geology, economic conditions, etc. You will not find a perfect example in another city of expressway tunneling that could be grafted onto Toronto. We would need to conduct our own EA, geological survey, traffic modeling, and so forth. Every project is unique, especially if it's innovative.

1. Tolls are discretionary, not tax grabs. If you don't want to pay them, you don't have to pay them by virtue of not using those roads.
2. Compared against similar cities, Toronto's cost of living is quite reasonable and, in fact, some aspects of the municipal tax base are astonishingly inadequately low to the point that we can't properly fund our essential services.

 

[jcam]

And when there are too many other options to get into the city other than a new tolled tunnel, this is what happens: http://tollroadsnews.com/news/sydney-cross-city-tunnel-bankrupt---receivers-take-over

And to add to ADRM's comment, remember that we have the lowest property taxes in the region, and politicians have somehow justified keeping their growth below the rate of inflation.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

There should not be ANY tolls added to existing roads, as we already pay for these through existing taxes, unless existing taxes are rolled back. Stop the tax grabs. Our cost of living is high enough. Let those who choose the convenience pay for NEW tolled roads, as long as they're buried and help fund transit. As for the examples I provided of toll tunnels in the U.S., they are very relevant to the discussion, as these tolls were set up to pay for dedicated infrastructure. As mentioned later in the article, in many cases a portion of the tunnel tolls are being used to fund transit. I find it bizarre that some bloggers on here who have advocated for London-style road charges or ways to sock it to visitors who come into the city to spend money are critical of my proposal, which only provides ADDITIONAL commute options. I could look at examples of tunneling in Montreal, but it's harder to parse out the costs versus user charges, as these projects are built and maintained by taxes rather than tolls. Also, every city is different in terms of traffic patterns, geography, geology, economic conditions, etc. You will not find a perfect example in another city of expressway tunneling that could be grafted onto Toronto. We would need to conduct our own EA, geological survey, traffic modeling, and so forth. Every project is unique, especially if it's innovative.

Driving downtown is increasingly a luxury, not a right - and your cost of living argument is problematical as well - especially if you can afford to drive and park in the core area. Besides, no one is suggesting a totally off the ball level of toll - $2 would be fairly reasonable.

AoD

 

[Euphoria]

Okay, I'm not advocating for a toll-tunnel only option for getting into the city. As mentioned, I'm only proposing a toll tunnel as new highway between Eglinton and the Gardiner as an Allen extension. Also, I have no issue with road tolls per se, as long as the state isn't double dipping, which would be the case if we add tolls on existing highways. If you want tolls, remove the taxes that currently fund these roads, period. With regard to property taxes in Toronto, there is one main reason why property taxes are low in Toronto: If properties were taxed at the same mill rate as surrounding municipalities, on assessed value many Torontonians could not afford to live in their homes. If you bought a Toronto home in the mid-80's or mid-90's in the $100,000-$200,000 range, it's very likely that that home today is worth over $700,000. Many homeowners who bought homes in the $300,000-$400,000 range around 15 years ago have properties worth over $1 million. Not everyone can downsize and move into condos, which have also crept up to around $500,000 on average (I won't even get into maintenance fees). Some people have families and need space. Maybe you'd think nothing of paying a $10,000 property tax bill, but if you really believe in a Jane Jacobs' style city with a mix of incomes and uses, lack of affordability means that only the upper echelon can live in the city core. Some celebrate this as the Manhattanization of Toronto, but not all of us want to live in a sanitized endless Yorkville, nor could many of us afford to.