Roads: Gardiner Expressway

[andrewpmk]

Just returned from Boston where they solved their downtown expressway issue the right way. The core of the city is reconnected to the North End with parks where an elevated expressway once stood and now lies hidden underground. We have an opportunity to do this much more cheaply than Boston's Big Dig with the construction of the DRL away from the water, but we're going to squander that opportunity and throw a billion at a lackluster Gardiner Hybrid and a sad attempt at a makeover of the elevated expressway with the Under Gardiner 'Bentway'. What a waste. In the end, that's what will separate Toronto from cities like Chicago, Boston, and Montreal: lack of vision, inability to think big, and a constant effort to do things on the cheap.

Burying the Gardiner is prohibitively expensive. The Big Dig cost $14.6 billion.

 

[Jonny5]

Just returned from Boston where they solved their downtown expressway issue the right way. The core of the city is reconnected to the North End with parks where an elevated expressway once stood and now lies hidden underground. We have an opportunity to do this much more cheaply than Boston's Big Dig with the construction of the DRL away from the water, but we're going to squander that opportunity and throw a billion at a lackluster Gardiner Hybrid and a sad attempt at a makeover of the elevated expressway with the Under Gardiner 'Bentway'. What a waste. In the end, that's what will separate Toronto from cities like Chicago, Boston, and Montreal: lack of vision, inability to think big, and a constant effort to do things on the cheap.

There is no disconnect in the city because of the Gardiner. The Gardiner as a barrier is a fantasy of people who have little, and often zero, experience of it. It is crossed with ease, it blocks nothing, it is a valuable transit artery.

The city adapted and wove the Gardiner in to its fabric. That isn't even a recent thing. It happened 20 years ago.

The Gardiner is great example of how "textbook urban design" is often the most ignorant and cowardly approach.

 

[Euphoria]

Wow, you must not get out much to think the Gardiner is a fine piece of city building. It's a relic from an era when cars were the organizing principle of city planning. Our city's transportation infrastructure could be so much better, and you don't have to leave North America to find good examples. Sounds like you've been sold a bill of goods about what is possible.

 

[ssiguy2]

Burying the Gardiner is too expensive for the relatively little benefit.

If they are not going to tear it down then they should do what I have stated earlier and trench it. The city could offer cheap Toronto lands to a developer and they build their condos or whatever but they must be built over a trenched Gardiner which they would have to build. The city would make up the difference in giving the develop the land by being able to sell the land where the current Gardiner sits.

It done all the time and the are hundreds of examples in Toronto alone..............they're called parking garages. If you can't tear it down that make it out-of-site-out-of-mind.

 

[Panontario]

People who always complain about Gardner forget that just directly north of it is a rail track. Rail track is significantly wider and obstructive than Gardner. I don't think that by getting rid of Gardner without getting rid of rail tracks, you can significantly alter the area.

I think that there are parts of Gardner that are definitely obstructive (ie, east of Yonge). But parts of West of Yonge are not that bad given an issue with a close proximity raiways. Ideally, you can get rid of both, improve access to the city and keep everyone happy. However, that's not going to happen due to the lack of funds.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

People who always complain about Gardner forget that just directly north of it is a rail track. Rail track is significantly wider and obstructive than Gardner. I don't think that by getting rid of Gardner without getting rid of rail tracks, you can significantly alter the area.

I think that there are parts of Gardner that are definitely obstructive (ie, east of Yonge). But parts of West of Yonge are not that bad given an issue with a close proximity raiways. Ideally, you can get rid of both, improve access to the city and keep everyone happy. However, that's not going to happen due to the lack of funds.

People who complain about people complaining about the Gardiner seem to forget people who complain about the Gardiner are those that bike, run or walk under the Gardiner, and therefore ARE WELL AWARE THERE ARE TRAIN TRACKS BESIDE THE GARDINER. Sheesh - do you think we're so stunned we've missed the Bala underpass each time we've biked to Corktown Commons?

Rebuilding the Gardiner is now fait accompli, but saying it doesn't matter due to the train tracks being there anyway is apologist rubbish.

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

Burying the Gardiner is prohibitively expensive. The Big Dig cost $14.6 billion.

Doesn't mean burying the Gardiner would cost that much

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Doesn't mean burying the Gardiner would cost that much

And if we got half as much money floating around, shouldn't we be spending it on DRL? Besides, the section of the Gardiner where most benefit can be achieved (central portion) is where they've already made the decision of keeping it up long ago.

AoD

 

[Panontario]

People who complain about people complaining about the Gardiner seem to forget people who complain about the Gardiner are those that bike, run or walk under the Gardiner, and therefore ARE WELL AWARE THERE ARE TRAIN TRACKS BESIDE THE GARDINER. Sheesh - do you think we're so stunned we've missed the Bala underpass each time we've biked to Corktown Commons?

Rebuilding the Gardiner is now fait accompli, but saying it doesn't matter due to the train tracks being there anyway is apologist rubbish.

I am being realistic what can be done with limited funds that Toronto has. My main point is that taking down Gardner alone without doing anything to the railroad will not do significantly transform most areas in the central core.

And btw, I live right between Gardner and rail tunnel... so I know the area very well.

 

[MetroMan]

And if we got half as much money floating around, shouldn't we be spending it on DRL? Besides, the section of the Gardiner where most benefit can be achieved (central portion) is where they've already made the decision of keeping it up long ago.

AoD

Exactly. Given the density built around the elevated central Gardiner, that ship sailed away over a decade ago. Meanwhile, they're doing a pretty good job of hemming in the Gardiner and making it easier for pedestrians to cross under. A tunnel will never be built here.

What may still happen some time farther off into the future is rebuilding the Gardiner either over the rail corridor or submerging prefab tunnels into the lake.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

I am being realistic what can be done with limited funds that Toronto has. My main point is that taking down Gardner alone without doing anything to the railroad will not do significantly transform most areas in the central core.

And btw, I live right between Gardner and rail tunnel... so I know the area very well.

1. The part of the Gardiner that was proposed to be taken down was east of Jarvis. No one lives there. If you live at Cityplace or Bathurst or Liberty, the Gardiner is higher and has swung south of the tracks. Very different dynamic than east Gardiner.

2. It would have been cheaper to tear down the Gardiner than rebuild, so limited funds is not a constraint.

3. Tearing down that part of the Gardiner could have accelerated construction of - at minimum - 4 communities in QQEast, LDL, Portlands, and the soap plant.

Last - IMHO the DD underground connection, Cherry and Parliament underpass improvements, and a streetcar connection of Cherry and Queen's Quay as part of the new Lake Shore boulevard would have knitted together the east end like never before. But I guess we'll never know, as we'll get some ramps instead.

 

[TrickyRicky]

This is just my opinion but I was in Boston last summer and I have visited the city before, during, and after the big dig. While the project was probably worth while I find that the "connection" between the city and the waterfront is not particularly impressive.

I'm sure some could post photos disproving my opinion but while in Boston last I couldn't help but feel that the connection between the city and the waterfront in Boston still just felt like Toronto, except on a smaller scale. Sure there is no elevated structure but replacing it with a wide boulevard and landscaped nothingness still doesn't repair the gap.

On the other hand in Tokyo elevated structures and at grade rail infrastructure are common-place elements that are sometimes handled well, sometimes handled badly. I was staying near Ueno Station and the space under over-head structures is just the place where people go out to the bars that are located there. Problem solved...no 15 billion price-tag

 

[ssiguy2]

If they don't trench it and the hybrid stays the way it is then they should turn it into a masterpiece under the structure. I'm not talking cheap covered sidewalks but wood on all the pylons and roof, interesting lighting, cafes, markets, and gardens with NO bloody bike lanes that everyone has to navigate around.. A real place for the city where being under the Gardiner becomes one of the city's best neighbourhoods. A place where Torontonians can eat, drink, shop, and play rain or shine, winter or summer.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Kensington Market with a wooded roof and beautiful old style lighting.

Make the Gardiner THE place to be and be seen. A 24 hour district that everyone wants to hang out. Just as some cities have proven that taking down a freeway doesn't result in worse traffic, Toronto could be the first city to prove that keeping it's elevated Waterfront Freeway was one of the best urban planning decisions the city ever made. Toronto has the opportunity to show the cityies that did tear down their freeways that they missed out on a golden opportunity.

 

[salsa]

This is just my opinion but I was in Boston last summer and I have visited the city before, during, and after the big dig. While the project was probably worth while I find that the "connection" between the city and the waterfront is not particularly impressive.

I'm sure some could post photos disproving my opinion but while in Boston last I couldn't help but feel that the connection between the city and the waterfront in Boston still just felt like Toronto, except on a smaller scale. Sure there is no elevated structure but replacing it with a wide boulevard and landscaped nothingness still doesn't repair the gap.

I completely agree. When I visited I was much less impressed than I thought I'd be. This comment I found in an article explains it better than I can.

On the day I visited, the North End was jammed with tourists snapping photos of the streets, students standing in long lines at pizza parlors, and many residents simply going about their daily business by foot. The few on the Greenway were walking briskly either toward the North End or back the other way, and indeed, with such an extraordinary neighborhood so close by, the appeal of lying on a shade-less grass lawn between six lanes of roaring traffic loses any appeal it might have otherwise had.​

 

[salsa]

Just returned from Boston where they solved their downtown expressway issue the right way. The core of the city is reconnected to the North End with parks where an elevated expressway once stood and now lies hidden underground. We have an opportunity to do this much more cheaply than Boston's Big Dig with the construction of the DRL away from the water, but we're going to squander that opportunity and throw a billion at a lackluster Gardiner Hybrid and a sad attempt at a makeover of the elevated expressway with the Under Gardiner 'Bentway'. What a waste. In the end, that's what will separate Toronto from cities like Chicago, Boston, and Montreal: lack of vision, inability to think big, and a constant effort to do things on the cheap.

I am not at all jealous of the city that sunk $22 billion on the Big Dig to end up with an arterial road and a glorified median strip masquerading as "greenspace".

For that kind of money, Toronto can build enough transit to eliminate the whole goddamn highway in the first place instead of going down the same rabbit hole as Boston and Seattle.

we're going to squander that opportunity and throw a billion at a lackluster Gardiner Hybrid and a sad attempt at a makeover of the elevated expressway with the Under Gardiner 'Bentway'. What a waste.

Or we could have just torn it down when we had the chance. What a waste indeed.