Roads: Gardiner Expressway

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Gladman:

Elections are participated and won by the left because their policies mainly involve sharing the wealth of the taxpayers too busy making money.

You definitely need to look up the election results at every level of government for the oh, past 50 years, and just how "left" won it all and the average taxpayer never benefitted in a big way from any of it.

I think the province needs to take back control of the Gardiner, plus take the DVP away from Toronto. The province already has the DVP from 401 to Steeles (thankfully). How long before the DVP turns into 1 bus and 1 bike lane? I'm tired of the DVP signs saying take a bike/find a carpool. They are supposed to used for traffic info, not Millerlite propoganda.

The province never controlled either in the first place - both are city built and owned expressways. Another point - it's 404 between 401 and Steeles, not DVP. As to DVP signs - I am sure you are equally opposed to signs on 401 saying "Don't drink and drive", "Don't follow too close", etc.

The other quietly ignored part of the demo the Gardiner announcement is the death of the Front St. Extension. This, while 50-100,000 new residents are plopped in between Spadina and Dufferin, south of King St. How does not building a new road in this area make sense?

Densification does not equate to building new highway/highway ramps.

AoD

 

[adma]

Great post, Dichotomy. I didn't think pro-Gardiner people were allowed here at UT.

I dunno, I've seen a sort of constructive pro-Gardiner thoughtful-urbanist contingent out there along the Spacing/Concrete Toronto axis. Of course, that's a little different from the loudmouth schnooks and James Alcock dittoheads who are "pro-Gardiner" in an "anti-lefty-agenda" way...

 

[Dichotomy]

We're not talking about 'every level of government,' now are we? That's being a little disingenuous - we're talking about City politics here. The left wing contingent has controlled City Hall for the most part. Sewell? Barbara Hall? Eggleton? Lastman is the only one on the recent list who might be considered not left wing, but then it could be argued North York voted for him.
Besides, there is no need to resort to labels that are intended to be derogatory. Labels like 'right-wing,' 'motorist,' 'cyclist' are all convenient tags to denigrate one's opponent. We are all human beings. Fast, convenient transport of goods and people around the city is as important (it could be argued MORE important) as being able to walk or cycle unhindered. Why do all solutions for transit and pedestrians have to be at the expense of vehicle traffic flow? We have lowered our expectations far too much.
I think the Province should get involved and stop this lunacy.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Dicotomy:

Please re-read the statement:

Elections are participated and won by the left because their policies mainly involve sharing the wealth of the taxpayers too busy making money.

Elections, the left, wealth redistribution and taxpayers are hardly the province of municipal politics alone. Beyond that - Eggleton is left wing? You gotta be kidding me.

Fast, convenient transport of goods and people around the city is as important (it could be argued MORE important) as being able to walk or cycle unhindered. Why do all solutions for transit and pedestrians have to be at the expense of vehicle traffic flow? We have lowered our expectations far too much.

Actually, if you really want to prioritize - consider the amount of traffic transit carries, vs. cars in the case of the Gardiner...why shouldn't it be at the expense of vehicle traffic flow?

I think the Province should get involved and stop this lunacy.

Please think about what you've just posted:

Besides, there is no need to resort to labels that are intended to be derogatory.

AoD

 

[Dichotomy]

One of the major challenges in modern politics is that the lines between traditional 'left' and 'right' have blurred. The NDP is in disarray because they haven't come to grips with that. Some of their mainstay issues (gay rights, for example) have almost become maintstream politics these days. Their traditional support for the environment is challenged by their large union support in the auto industry. It is not so easy to pigeon-hole people any more.

One can support gay marriage, be pro-union, anti-car, and anti-abortion all at the same time. Or not. No wonder the Liberals have lost their way. It isn't easy to figured out what the people want.

So why not start standing up for what is simply right for Canada, or right for Ontario or right for Toronto and stop pandering to the interest groups? If people weren't so frightened of 'offending' in public there might actually be some intelligent discourse and issues might actually get resolved.

 

[Redroom Studios]

well, with labels in mind... I am about as "left-wing" as you can get, but I think it's a really bad idea to tear down that section of The Gardiner. How's that for a curve ball...?

I dont really see how bringing all that traffic onto city streets makes anything better or improves access to the waterfront. Has anybody been on Eastern Ave lately ??? (where the former eastern extension of The Gardiner once sat) The traffic is a nightmare for pedestrians! In general I dont see the advantage of reducing the capacity of your exisiting infrastructure. Toronto has far less downtown expressways in the first place compared to major US cities. I say keep the raised section that completes this necessary loop! Spend more money on maintaining it and keep it looking decent for tourists to walk underneath.

I have a sense that most people calling for it to be torn down have nothing to lose - that is they dont live east of the DVP or perhaps dont own a car at all. It's easy to be for something when it doesnt affect you.

(This message approved by Jack Layton)

 

[urbanfan89]

So why not start standing up for what is simply right for Canada, or right for Ontario or right for Toronto and stop pandering to the interest groups? If people weren't so frightened of 'offending' in public there might actually be some intelligent discourse and issues might actually get resolved.

I take it that you're getting instructions from the Conservative Party HQ on what talking points to use, then.

 

[Whoaccio]

So why not start standing up for what is simply right for Canada, or right for Ontario or right for Toronto and stop pandering to the interest groups? If people weren't so frightened of 'offending' in public there might actually be some intelligent discourse and issues might actually get resolved.

Because different people have different views on what is right for their society. You mean standing up for what you think is right, not what is right. If you are complaining about the unsuitability of big tent political parties to a generally ambivalent electorate, you would be better off looking at our idiotic first past the post voting system. Don't present you're opinion as anything other than what it is, opinion. And what, exactly, differentiates you from a "special interest group". You have you're own opinions and interests, and you form a group.

 

[Hydrogen]

One can support gay marriage, be pro-union, anti-car, and anti-abortion all at the same time. Or not. No wonder the Liberals have lost their way. It isn't easy to figured out what the people want.

One could always hold a mixed array of positions like this - regardless of the political party they happen to support.

The automobile has become an easy target amongst the politically active set, and the Gardiner is the flashpoint. Don't confound opponents of the Gardiner with facts like the railway tracks are uglier and more of an impediment to the lake.

It's not automobiles, it's the quantity of automobiles. If there was to be an addition to the Gardiner rather than a partial removal, it still would be packed with cars. Regardless, any portion of the Gardiner that is removed will be placed by a roadway - just different from that of a highway.

As for the railway tracks, remember that where things like Skydome, the CN Tower, Cityplace and the Convention Centre presently sit was once covered by rail yards. This feature has been greatly reduced in size.

 

[Dichotomy]

I take it that you're getting instructions from the Conservative Party HQ on what talking points to use, then.

One can never make assumptions, dear. I am gay and have always (until the last election) voted Liberal or NDP.

How's that for a curve ball? I have watched this city (my city) on a rapid downhill slide for the pat 30 years. It isn't the left's or the right's fault: it is just selfish interest groups and a general malaise in public discourse.

I can categorically say that after 30 years of liberal-arts graduates controlling the media, there is a ton of 'tsk, tsk' subjects that are taboo because they are not PC - and that is probably the sadest development in public affairs.

 

[Dichotomy]

One could always hold a mixed array of positions like this - regardless of the political party they happen to support.



It's not automobiles, it's the quantity of automobiles. If there was to be an addition to the Gardiner rather than a partial removal, it still would be packed with cars. Regardless, any portion of the Gardiner that is removed will be placed by a roadway - just different from that of a highway.

As for the railway tracks, remember that where things like Skydome, the CN Tower, Cityplace and the Convention Centre presently sit was once covered by rail yards. This feature has been greatly reduced in size.

And this is my particular favorite line of flawed logic: let's not widen the DVP or Gardiner BECAUSE TOO MANY PEOPLE WILL USE IT.

Can you just hear yourself say that? That's like Wal-Mart saying, "Let's not build a store in this location because it will be busy."

Is that what passes for logic in city circles these days?

I drove the DVP for 11 years. Now I drive the Gardiner. One lane from Spadina west, moving the Dowling Ave overpass to allow a longer on ramp for Jameson - these small things would probably increase the capacity of the Gardiner by 25% of more. Similarly, the DVP would only need one lane north from Eglinton and south from Don Mills and fix the stupid on/off ramps at York Mills (too close to the 401 ramps!) - VOILA! Headaches fixed for thousands of motorists every day.

Sure, I would love to have 2 extra lanes in each direction for both highways, to bring it up to spec with what other 'world class' cities have for their downtowns, but I am not holding my breath.

Instead, a bunch of selfish interest groups want to tear down a section of the Gardiner and make it worse, not better. Wonderful logic. More access to a lake we don't use now.

For the record, I personally don't give a sh#t if the Gardiner is beheaded - I get off at Jarvis, but I can see WITH MY OWN EYES that this is a stupid, stupid error.

And standing on the balcony of my friend's condo at the foot of Parliament against last Saturday night, I marvelled at the ugly train tracks and wondered how the hell the Gardiner means absolutely anything to someone on a bicycle going to Cherry Beach.

Good grief! The lunatics are truly in charge of the asylum.

 

[Chuck]

Canada is plagued by regionalism, therefore the terms left and right wing just don't matter anymore. The federal Conservatives may as well be called the Alberta or the Oil Party. The federal Liberals may as well be called the Ontario Party. The NDP may as well be called the SOB (south of Bloor, hehe) party. Let's not even bring Quebec into the picture.

In this country, one's interests are best served by voting for the party for which the leader lives closest to home. Therefore, the only level of government where you can truly vote according to your political opinions is municipally - it's the only election where all of the candidates have YOUR city's interests in mind, the only difference being their approach.

Having said that, I voted for Jane Pitfield as mayor, and supported John Tor(onto)'s party provincially. During the Mike Harris years, I supported the Liberal party, because the needs of Toronto can not be met by someone out of touch with anything south of Barrie. Without a doubt, I'm Conservative. But you'd have to hold a gun to my head before I would ever vote for the federal Conservatives! See what I mean?

 

[smuncky]

VOILA! Headaches fixed for thousands of motorists every day.

but for how long? a couple of years before it gets too congested again and then what? expand it 1 lane more?

 

[Chuck]

Dichotomy, it's a proven fact - a fact that is even taught in university level traffic engineering courses - that traffic volumes rapidly increase out of thin air to form new congestion whenever road capacity is increased.

Months after the 407 opened, traffic on the 401 was worse than it had ever been before, and yet an additional 200,000 vehicles materialized and were now using the 407 each day. The massive influx of cars in this corridor meant that roadways which were previously operating at an acceptable level of service, were now becoming congested.

If an extra lane was added to the Gardiner or DVP, it would quickly become congested anyway, only now there would be even more congestion at onramps and exits to the highway. End result? Longer travel times and more traffic than before. The biggest transportation problem faced by the GTA today is that there are too many single occupancy vehicles making trips that would be better carried by high order transit like trains and subways which doesn't exist.

 

[GraphicMatt]

Traffic on a route like the Gardiner seems kind of cyclical, in a sense. If it's ridiculously congested every day, people stop driving it and find alternatives. If you improve road infrastructure (widening), people start hearing that the flow has improved and start driving it again, causing the congestion to return. Once a city reaches a certain size, your major routes are going to be congested, regardless of their capacity.

At the end of the day, the commuter just wants to get to work/get home as fast as possible. Politics and advocacy don't really enter into the equation for most people -- they just want to get where they're going.

I'm not really sure the Gardiner -- especially the eastern portion they've labeled for tear-down -- serves much use for people who live in the city. I had to get from Sherbourne to Roncesvaille the other day in mid-morning (after rush hour) and I just took the Lakeshore (I tried to take the Queen streetcar; it didn't work). I did the same on my return at about 5:30. It's not a pleasant drive, because the Lakeshore is ugly, but I didn't feel like it took an inappropriate amount of time.