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Roads: Gardiner Expressway

I find it funny that people think these tolls will have a net gain. What is the gain? We already pay for existing highways through a range of taxes, including the gas tax. It would be different if we got something in return for this toll, like a buried Gardiner and a new, revamped Lakeshore Blvd. Really, what are we getting for this toll, the Hybrid east of Jarvis that barely over half of City Council endorsed?

If you think this toll expedites the DRL's construction, I can promise you that this new toll makes it easier for Council to increase payouts at the next round of collective bargaining and police hiring. Kiss that money goodbye. Think about this the next time you consider taking a job that requires a trip on the Gardiner or DVP. Oh wait, the transit system will be so much better and faster because of this toll. You'll be able to get anywhere in the city by bus or subway within an hour. Dream on.
 
Euphoria said:
I find it funny that people think these tolls will have a net gain. What is the gain? We already pay for existing highways through a range of taxes, including the gas tax. It would be different if we got something in return for this toll, like a buried Gardiner and a new, revamped Lakeshore Blvd. Really, what are we getting for this toll, the Hybrid east of Jarvis that barely over half of City Council endorsed?

If you think this toll expedites the DRL's construction, I can promise you that this new toll makes it easier for Council to increase payouts at the next round of collective bargaining and police hiring. Kiss that money goodbye. Think about this the next time you consider taking a job that requires a trip on the Gardiner or DVP. Oh wait, the transit system will be so much better and faster because of this toll. You'll be able to get anywhere in the city by bus or subway within an hour. Dream on.
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The gasoline tax is provincial, which mostly goes into provincial general venue. Does not go to maintain the Gardiner nor the Don Valley, which are city roads paid by city of Toronto property taxes. The Ontario gasoline has been at 14.7¢ per litre of unleaded gasoline, unchanged since January 1, 1992. See link. Since 2004, a portion of the gasoline tax (2¢ a litre) is given to municipalities for public transit, however the total rate was unchanged.
 
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True that those are city highways, but they have dedicated taxes already. My point is, what are we getting in exchange for the toll? If it's the Gardiner Hybrid east of Jarvis and a sliver of annual transit funding, it's not worth it. This is mostly about bailing out Tory's Hybrid.
 
You will continue to pay the same proportion of your property taxes towards highways. This toll is not being offset by a reduction in taxes elsewhere. Also, the Hybrid doesn't eliminate a street level and/or elevated expressway, which means we get lousy north-south connections to the Portlands instead of pedestrian and cyclist friendly gateways. Lakeshore Blvd. also remains a dull arterial. If it paid for a buried Gardiner between Strachan and the DVP I'd support it, if the tolls were only on that tunnel. Adding tolls to the DVP is gouging. Motorists should be able to get in and out of the city without paying tolls. We're all going to lose if all we get is the Hybrid east of Jarvis. Only the rich who can afford to pay or the very poor who rarely leave their square mile will be immune.
 
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I'm all for removing the entire elevated portion of the Gardiner, with or without an underground replacement. If we get an underground replacement, it should be entirely self-funded by tolls. No taxes should be involved. In fact, the maintenance costs on the existing elevated Gardiner could be dedicated to transit. We would need decent connections from the free highways to the city grid. Thankfully we have room for this in the west just east of Strachan over the tracks and in the east by Unilever (and the existing ramps at Richmond and Adelaide). A toll tunnel could run under Richmond and Adelaide or under Lakeshore Blvd. (The former option would allow us to keep the existing Gardiner open during construction and is probably cheaper. Higher tolls could partially fund the DRL.)
 
As I said earlier, give the developers the land for the new Gardiner and have them pay for it and they can build whatever they want over top of it. This has a distinct advantage of both the blvd and elevated options.......allows for future tax revenue from where the current Gardiner is and where the hybrid line would go.
 
Here we are full circle. I do remember your idea and I also support something along those lines. If the Gardiner was buried in its current alignment, basically the westbound tunnel would be under the boulevard and development on the north side of a revamped Lakeshore Blvd. The eastbound tunnel would be under the southern side. On and off ramps would connect with Lakeshore Blvd. by rising to the middle. There might not be room for development along both sides of Lakeshore for the entire stretch, which is fine. It might look like Lakeshore and Sunnyside Pavilion at the Keating Channel.
 
Euphoria said:
Here we are full circle. I do remember your idea and I also support something along those lines. If the Gardiner was buried in its current alignment, basically the westbound tunnel would be under the boulevard and development on the north side of a revamped Lakeshore Blvd. The eastbound tunnel would be under the southern side. On and off ramps would connect with Lakeshore Blvd. by rising to the middle. There might not be room for development along both sides of Lakeshore for the entire stretch, which is fine. It might look like Lakeshore and Sunnyside Pavilion at the Keating Channel.
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An underground alignment is a pipe dream. How is the city of Toronto going to fund such a complex project like this? They'll have to charge tolls for 20 years before they even have enough money to build such project. If the city had this much money, they might as well build the Sheppard subway instead.

An underground alignment would interfere with the Bay street streetcar tunnel. The waterfront sits on reclaimed land where the water level is closer to the surface making it difficult to dig really deep. It would also interfere with the future waterfront LRT tunnels.
 
Stop thinking small. Anything is possible and people will be willing to pay upwards to $20 in tolls each way to experience a world class cities infrastructure. Next up the allen
 
sixrings said:
Stop thinking small. Anything is possible and people will be willing to pay upwards to $20 in tolls each way to experience a world class cities infrastructure. Next up the allen
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In case you don't know yet. The Allen Expressway is still dead.


In fact, cities are tearing down downtown expressways.
 
AlvinofDiaspar said:
Boston is a case of spending so much money for so poor an outcome - not something to emulate. My only regret with the current proposal is that it doesn't completely rebuild the section between Jarvis to Don River in a way that is more urban friendly.

AoD
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what about San Fran? They are world class too.
 
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