Roads: Gardiner Expressway

[Tuscani01]

They forget that the traffic will get much, much worse on other roads as well, such as 401, Front, Richmond/Adelaide, King, Jarvis/Mt Pleasant etc. Tearing down a section of one of only two highways into the downtown of a major city is absurd. This should be obvious when the DVP was closed due to flooding between Bloor and Gardiner last year, or when lanes to the George Washington Bridge were closed in Fort Lee, or the traffic problems at Eglinton/Allen caused by not finishing the Spadina Expressway. Also the claim that there will be "only" 10 minutes delay assumes that the downtown relief line and GO improvements and waterfront streetcars will be built, of course if Toronto is crazy enough to replace Gardiner with 24/7 traffic congestion on Lake Shore then there will be absolutely no transit improvements at all, and they are probably underestimating the amount of redevelopment in the Gardiner/DVP area which would put more cars on that stretch of the Gardiner. I'm sure if we did a "traffic study" and closed the Gardiner temporarily we would find this out the hard way. Toronto has just about the worst traffic of any city in a developed country and this is largely because of series of bad transportation decisions over the years like building only half the Spadina Expressway, not building real subways because Miller and left wing councillors are extremely anti-subway and because of Mike Harris cuts, neglecting the GO train system, not widening the DVP between Eglinton and 401, privatizing the 407 and jacking up tolls to exorbitant levels, and raising commercial tax rates to absurd levels causing companies to move their headquarters to Mississauga (though bad weather in the winter is also a major cause).

They forget that the traffic will get much, much worse on other roads as well, such as 401, Front, Richmond/Adelaide, King, Jarvis/Mt Pleasant etc. Tearing down a section of one of only two highways into the downtown of a major city is absurd. This should be obvious when the DVP was closed due to flooding between Bloor and Gardiner last year, or when lanes to the George Washington Bridge were closed in Fort Lee, or the traffic problems at Eglinton/Allen caused by not finishing the Spadina Expressway. Also the claim that there will be "only" 10 minutes delay assumes that the downtown relief line and GO improvements and waterfront streetcars will be built, of course if Toronto is crazy enough to replace Gardiner with 24/7 traffic congestion on Lake Shore then there will be absolutely no transit improvements at all, and they are probably underestimating the amount of redevelopment in the Gardiner/DVP area which would put more cars on that stretch of the Gardiner. I'm sure if we did a "traffic study" and closed the Gardiner temporarily we would find this out the hard way. Toronto has just about the worst traffic of any city in a developed country and this is largely because of series of bad transportation decisions over the years like building only half the Spadina Expressway, not building real subways because Miller and left wing councillors are extremely anti-subway and because of Mike Harris cuts, neglecting the GO train system, not widening the DVP between Eglinton and 401, privatizing the 407 and jacking up tolls to exorbitant levels, and raising commercial tax rates to absurd levels causing companies to move their headquarters to Mississauga (though bad weather in the winter is also a major cause).

You're assuming that removal of the Gardiner would have the same effects as a last minute shut down, and that is not the case. Traffic eventually disperses and the effects are less noticeable several weeks after a permanent shutdown. The first few days will be hell, yes, but eventually things will work themselves out.

The only reason we deal with traffic nightmares during shutdowns now is because people do not plan ahead. I guarantee that more people will switch to transit once they realize that it is much faster than sitting in traffic. GO Transit is already making improvements that will handle more passengers and offer more frequent service.

As for Toronto raising commercial tax rates to absurd levels under Miller, that is also not true. Under Miller, council began lowering the commercial tax rate by putting more of the burden on residents by raising the property tax rate. All of the other negatives you have stated about Toronto's decisions are also not seen as negatives everywhere else. Freeways have destroyed cities, and more of them are beginning to eliminate their freeways.

407 tolls are not that bad, especially when you look at other cities that use tolls (Ie. It costs $6 to cross the Golden Gate Bridge (2.7km) into San Fran, and $6 for the Oakland-Bay Bridge (7.1km), $6 on the 407 gets you almost 7km + video toll charge worth of travel during peak period - not a bad cost for the time and frustration you save by using the 407) My bills never go over $14 per use, and it's worth every penny spent.

CityPlace is a good example of why new development does not mean there will be more traffic. Majority of the people moving to these areas work downtown, and do not drive to work. Over 70% of CityPlace's population does not drive, and the rest who do, do not do so frequently. (Pay a visit to any parking garage in CityPlace and you will see how much dust is collecting on most cars)

 

[ehlow]

You're assuming that removal of the Gardiner would have the same effects as a last minute shut down, and that is not the case. Traffic eventually disperses and the effects are less noticeable several weeks after a permanent shutdown. The first few days will be hell, yes, but eventually things will work themselves out.

The only reason we deal with traffic nightmares during shutdowns now is because people do not plan ahead. I guarantee that more people will switch to transit once they realize that it is much faster than sitting in traffic. GO Transit is already making improvements that will handle more passengers and offer more frequent service.

As for Toronto raising commercial tax rates to absurd levels under Miller, that is also not true. Under Miller, council began lowering the commercial tax rate by putting more of the burden on residents by raising the property tax rate. All of the other negatives you have stated about Toronto's decisions are also not seen as negatives everywhere else. Freeways have destroyed cities, and more of them are beginning to eliminate their freeways.

407 tolls are not that bad, especially when you look at other cities that use tolls (Ie. It costs $6 to cross the Golden Gate Bridge (2.7km) into San Fran, and $6 for the Oakland-Bay Bridge (7.1km), $6 on the 407 gets you almost 7km + video toll charge worth of travel during peak period - not a bad cost for the time and frustration you save by using the 407) My bills never go over $14 per use, and it's worth every penny spent.

CityPlace is a good example of why new development does not mean there will be more traffic. Majority of the people moving to these areas work downtown, and do not drive to work. Over 70% of CityPlace's population does not drive, and the rest who do, do not do so frequently. (Pay a visit to any parking garage in CityPlace and you will see how much dust is collecting on most cars)

I don't have the stats on this, but anecdotally it seems like there is a growing percentage of the population who don't drive to work, and of those, a large percentage take transit separated from traffic (subways or streetcars with ROW), walk or bike, and therefore don't experience traffic at all. I'm one of them and I know many more. Many own cars but don't use them during a regular weekday. I would think a large percentage of people who live in condos belong to this group, as are many who live in houses in that are near transit.

Once I experienced the terrible traffic at rush hour driving from Mississauga to downtown during rush hour, and it took two hours of crawling traffic. I'm really glad I don't have to experience that every day.

 

[ehlow]

Oh yeah regarding the Spadina expressway: to me the Annex and St Clair West are some of the most beautiful neighbourhoods we have. I don't live there but I love walking through there and admiring the houses and great parks and enjoying the Cedarvale ravine (which the expressway would have ran through). For me its neighbourhoods like these that make Toronto great and make me want to live in the city.

If the expressway had gone through these neighbourhoods, they would be much worse off in my opinion, but I understand that some people just don't care and never go into these places.
http://spacing.ca/toronto/2006/05/30/spadina-expressway-renderings/
http://www.blogto.com/city/2010/07/nostalgia_tripping_the_spadina_expressway_debacle/

If it were built, would it really help that much? I have the feeling it would simply move the traffic bottleneck from Eglinton to Bloor street, and once the traffic was downtown, the streets downtown would be even more congested than today.

It's possible that it would have relieved the DVP or other roads temporarily, but eventually it would be just as traffic clogged as other highways.

To me, there's value in creating a place worth living in. I know many people who could live pretty much anywhere in the world who live in Toronto partly because of the vibrant and walkable neighbourhoods, and they end up contributing enormously to the economy here (creating start-up companies for example).

 

[nfitz]

They forget that the traffic will get much, much worse on other roads as well, such as 401, Front, Richmond/Adelaide, King, Jarvis/Mt Pleasant etc. Tearing down a section of one of only two highways into the downtown of a major city is absurd.

Both the Gardiner and DVP will still continue to go downtown. All that's being removed is a small piece of the Gardiner EAST of Jarvis. For those heading in from the west, they'll still be able to access all the current interchanges on the Gardiner, except they'll have to get on Lakeshore to get to the DVP.

And all those on the DVP will still be able to use Richmond/Adelaide to access dowtown ... which is what most do. They just won't be able to get on the Lakeshore.

The only ones grossly inconvenienced who use the DVP/Gardiner to get downtown are those who use the DVP, and work south of the tracks, in the Yonge/Bay area. And there's really not that many of them.

Oh, and those who use the DVP and Gardiner to get from say Eglinton/DVP to Etobicoke ... but perhaps cutting down on people travelling through downtown in rush hour isn't a bad thing, and might help congestion.

 

[malvern2]

Its no wonder why people in the suburbs vote Rob Ford with stupid proposals to knock down the east portion Gardiner...this idea is lunacy.

 

[TOareaFan]

CityPlace is a good example of why new development does not mean there will be more traffic. Majority of the people moving to these areas work downtown, and do not drive to work. Over 70% of CityPlace's population does not drive, and the rest who do, do not do so frequently. (Pay a visit to any parking garage in CityPlace and you will see how much dust is collecting on most cars)

I guess you don't spend a lot of time at Spadina and Bremner? A solid stream of cars coming out of there throughout the day...particularly at rush hours......those people are going somewhere.

 

[Tuscani01]

I guess you don't spend a lot of time at Spadina and Bremner? A solid stream of cars coming out of there throughout the day...particularly at rush hours......those people are going somewhere.

I own a condo at Luna and lived there for 3 years. The traffic has nothing to do with residents of CityPlace. Spadina is an on-ramp and the situation was just as bad as it was before CityPlace ever existed. Again, go look at the parking garages and tell me that all of those people are actually driving on a daily basis. Luna has been built for about 4 years now, and Concord Adex is still trying to sell empty parking spaces in the building. Even renting parking spaces is now difficult, and the prices keep decreasing due to the lack of demand.

The traffic on Bremner is a result of everyone entering/exiting the downtown core during rush hour. The vehicles originating or ending their trip from/in CityPlace make up a tiny amount of the overall traffic. Traffic planners for the area will tell you the same thing, as the traffic lights do not give priority to neighbourhood residents at all since there is more demand for traffic moving through the neighbourhood, not into or out of it.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

..., not building real subways because Miller and left wing councillors are extremely anti-subway and because of Mike Harris cuts, neglecting the GO train system, not widening the DVP between Eglinton and 401, privatizing the 407 and jacking up tolls to exorbitant levels, and raising commercial tax rates to absurd levels causing companies to move their headquarters to Mississauga (though bad weather in the winter is also a major cause).

More subways were introduced under the Miller administration than under any administration in at least the past 20 years. And unlike the allegedly pro-subway members of Council, Miller was actually able to find a way to fund and build these subways. How the hell does this make him anti-subway?

 

[the lemur]

I own a condo at Luna and lived there for 3 years. The traffic has nothing to do with residents of CityPlace. Spadina is an on-ramp and the situation was just as bad as it was before CityPlace ever existed. Again, go look at the parking garages and tell me that all of those people are actually driving on a daily basis. Luna has been built for about 4 years now, and Concord Adex is still trying to sell empty parking spaces in the building. Even renting parking spaces is now difficult, and the prices keep decreasing due to the lack of demand.

The traffic on Bremner is a result of everyone entering/exiting the downtown core during rush hour. The vehicles originating or ending their trip from/in CityPlace make up a tiny amount of the overall traffic. Traffic planners for the area will tell you the same thing, as the traffic lights do not give priority to neighbourhood residents at all since there is more demand for traffic moving through the neighbourhood, not into or out of it.

There does seem to be a lot of traffic on Bremner/Fort York Blvd trying to make it eastbound across Spadina with a very long red cycle, as well as for turns to southbound Spadina, from what I see when I bike through there, but that traffic does originate from CityPlace, right? The problem seems in part to be that there's only one way into and out of the neighbourhood, unless you specifically want to get on Lake Shore farther westbound at Dan Leckie. I don't see this getting any better until the Bathurst bridge is replaced and a new intersection appears at Bathurst/Fort York, whenever that may be.

 

[Tuscani01]

There does seem to be a lot of traffic on Bremner/Fort York Blvd trying to make it eastbound across Spadina with a very long red cycle, as well as for turns to southbound Spadina, from what I see when I bike through there, but that traffic does originate from CityPlace, right? The problem seems in part to be that there's only one way into and out of the neighbourhood, unless you specifically want to get on Lake Shore farther westbound at Dan Leckie. I don't see this getting any better until the Bathurst bridge is replaced and a new intersection appears at Bathurst/Fort York, whenever that may be.

Correct, that is usually the traffic originating from CityPlace, however you also cant make a left onto Spadina from Lakeshore going East, so all traffic wanting to head North now uses Dan Leckie to Fort York Boulevard. The TTC is also using this route now. It results in CityPlace residents getting frustrated because it is so difficult to get out of the neighbourhood. From what I have seen though, majority of the residents are smarter than that, and now head West to Dan Leckie, and then left onto Lakeshore, instead of waiting for the short light at Bremner/Spadina. Throw in a big event at the Rogers Centre, and traffic makes it impossible for residents to get in or out of CityPlace, hence why most just walk.

 

[PinkLucy]

I have lived with a view of the Spadina off ramp for about 7 years. It used to only be busy during events. Now the off ramp is lined up the majority if the time. I don't think it's just city place -- I'd say it's the overall impact if thousands of downtown dwellers

 

[Tuscani01]

I have lived with a view of the Spadina off ramp for about 7 years. It used to only be busy during events. Now the off ramp is lined up the majority if the time. I don't think it's just city place -- I'd say it's the overall impact if thousands of downtown dwellers

It's really not bad outside of peak hours. I have no issues getting in or out of CityPlace outside of rush hour, or events at Rogers Centre. (And the occasional closure of the Gardiner or Lakeshore) I hit up a driving range in Oakville after work and can usually be there within 25 minutes any day if I leave around 7. I plan my driving around the Rogers Centre schedule just to avoid dealing with the traffic.

 

[PinkLucy]

Life of the downtown dweller: plan your travel around events, lol. Yesterday I was driving to Longo's and checked the ACC site to see if something was going on, because if there is, you do NOT want to park at Maple Leaf Square.

It's going to be interesting to see how opening Fort York at Bathurst impacts traffic; I expect some will cut through there to get to Lake Shore and avoid the Spadina onramp.

 

[the lemur]

Correct, that is usually the traffic originating from CityPlace, however you also cant make a left onto Spadina from Lakeshore going East, so all traffic wanting to head North now uses Dan Leckie to Fort York Boulevard. The TTC is also using this route now. It results in CityPlace residents getting frustrated because it is so difficult to get out of the neighbourhood. From what I have seen though, majority of the residents are smarter than that, and now head West to Dan Leckie, and then left onto Lakeshore, instead of waiting for the short light at Bremner/Spadina. Throw in a big event at the Rogers Centre, and traffic makes it impossible for residents to get in or out of CityPlace, hence why most just walk.

Do you have a sense of where people most driving out of CityPlace are commuting to?

 

[ehlow]

Do you have a sense of where people most driving out of CityPlace are commuting to?

I would think many are going to the other big employment areas: Mississauga near the airport or Markham.

I know of several people who live downtown and drive to those areas for work.