Road Tolls

[nfitz]

Doesn't need to be. It only needs to be easy for about 5% to 10% of current users.

Bingo. What percentage of people either move or find a new job every year? Probably 5% to 10%. That's all we're talking here. Heck, all we are really talking here is people making new choices, not existing choices.

Heck, people make choices like this all the time. Look at all the changes that ever increasing gas prices have done to the modal split for example. Look a the people who have moved to Oshawa and commute in because they see it as cheaper than living in Toronto. If you remove some of that savings, then less will make that decision, and/or more will take GO.

 

[TOareaFan]

Bingo. What percentage of people either move or find a new job every year? Probably 5% to 10%. That's all we're talking here. Heck, all we are really talking here is people making new choices, not existing choices.

Heck, people make choices like this all the time. Look at all the changes that ever increasing gas prices have done to the modal split for example. Look a the people who have moved to Oshawa and commute in because they see it as cheaper than living in Toronto. If you remove some of that savings, then less will make that decision, and/or more will take GO.

A lot of people have moved to Oshawa? The population of Oshawa is 10k more people in the 2011 census than the 2001 census. 1 thousand people a year! Doesn't that make it one of the slowest growing municipalities in the GTA?

 

[hawc]

I'm still willing to bet most of the folks on here who say "Toll 'em!" are the same people who think anything north of Bloor is the suburbs.

One thing about the live closer to where you work argument, well then get ready for Toronto housing to get even more unaffordable is you want everyone to live in the city. Or get ready to lose major corporate tax payers to the suburbs. Or get ready for even more condos. Like it or not, commuters actually take pressure off our city housing prices. More demand and the prices would go even higher.

And let's not forget the other inconvenient thing about taking the train to a given train stop is what happens when your final destination is still 10 km from that stop?

 

[TOareaFan]

I'm still willing to bet most of the folks on here who say "Toll 'em!" are the same people who think anything north of Bloor is the suburbs.

One thing about the live closer to where you work argument, well then get ready for Toronto housing to get even more unaffordable is you want everyone to live in the city. Or get ready to lose major corporate tax payers to the suburbs. Or get ready for even more condos. Like it or not, commuters actually take pressure off our city housing prices. More demand and the prices would go even higher.

And let's not forget the other inconvenient thing about taking the train to a given train stop is what happens when your final destination is still 10 km from that stop?

Don't you know the "live closer to work" argument only comes out when it is about people living in the 905 commuting to the 416. I had a discussion on here recently about a somewhat growing business park in Brampton.......the answer to the congestion that businesses/jobs locating in places like Brampton causes...not "the people should move to Brampton" it was "brampton should not allow office development".

"Move close to where you work" is a simplistic answer that only works in ideal/fairytale worlds.

 

[nfitz]

A lot of people have moved to Oshawa? The population of Oshawa is 10k more people in the 2011 census than the 2001 census. 1 thousand people a year! Doesn't that make it one of the slowest growing municipalities in the GTA?

I was thinking of the entire Durham area actually, which grew over 100,000 people from 2001 to 2011. Anything on the 401 east of Scarborough. Whitby's growth has been much higher.

Though even 10,000 people in Oshawa isn't insignificant. The 3-lane 401 out there has a capacity of 6,000 vehicles per hour. Even 1,000 more drivers creates congestion.

The ones who gain the most from tolling, of course, are those who drive the most on 400-series roads in rush-hour (presuming that's what's tolled). Suddenly congestion should vanish, and travel times become much better. All that for travel costs that are still cheaper than the GO Train per kilometre. A GO fare from Oshawa, about 50 km from Union is $8.65. So that's over 17 ¢/km, more than we'd expect tolls to be.

 

[reaperexpress]

I'm still willing to bet most of the folks on here who say "Toll 'em!" are the same people who think anything north of Bloor is the suburbs.

I can't speak for everyone else, but I support tolls even though I live in Vaughan, and I do consider it to be a suburb. I don't see how that's relevant though, the two issues are completely unrelated.

 

[TOareaFan]

I was thinking of the entire Durham area actually, which grew over 100,000 people from 2001 to 2011. Anything on the 401 east of Scarborough. Whitby's growth has been much higher.

Still not a huge growth relative to other GTA regions. What was the growth in Peel (I know Brampton grew by 198k during that time).

IThough even 10,000 people in Oshawa isn't insignificant. The 3-lane 401 out there has a capacity of 6,000 vehicles per hour. Even 1,000 more drivers creates congestion.

Assuming all of them are adults? All of them work in places other than Oshawa? All of them drive? Going back to your original point, you can't be saying that all of them are Mississauga-Oshawa commuters....that defies any logic/common sense

IThe ones who gain the most from tolling, of course, are those who drive the most on 400-series roads in rush-hour (presuming that's what's tolled). Suddenly congestion should vanish, and travel times become much better. All that for travel costs that are still cheaper than the GO Train per kilometre. A GO fare from Oshawa, about 50 km from Union is $8.65. So that's over 17 ¢/km, more than we'd expect tolls to be.

How does the toll make congestion suddenly vanish?

 

[nfitz]

Still not a huge growth relative to other GTA regions. What was the growth in Peel (I know Brampton grew by 198k during that time).

Bigger growth rate than Toronto. Durham growth was what, about 8% ... Toronto was what, 3%?

Still, not my point. People have moved east of the GTA, and drive more on 400-series highways, creating congestion. This is true in Peel, Halton, and York too. I simply threw out a single town. I could just have easily said Milton.

Assuming all of them are adults? All of them work in places other than Oshawa? All of them drive? Going back to your original point, you can't be saying that all of them are Mississauga-Oshawa commuters....that defies any logic/common sense

Okay, I concede. Your right. There isn't more congestion or traffic that there used to be. Good grief, where did I ever say that all of them are Mississauga-Oshawa commuters????? Sure, most aren't. But I bet at least 1% are. And certainly many, if not most, of those employed, work outside of Durham, and are using the 401.

How does the toll make congestion suddenly vanish?

Simply economics. Look at how congestion suddenly vanished in parts of London when they put congestion charges in ... though they later failed by electing a right-wing wingnut who proceeded to remove some of the charges, and failed to increase it to keep the congestion at bay.

You set the congestion charges to a level where the highway keeps moving. So it varies by location, and time of day. Then you jack up the prices until the traffic starts to move.

 

[TOareaFan]

Bigger growth rate than Toronto. Durham growth was what, about 8% ... Toronto was what, 3%?

Still, not my point. People have moved east of the GTA, and drive more on 400-series highways, creating congestion. This is true in Peel, Halton, and York too. I simply threw out a single town. I could just have easily said Milton.

Fair enough. In two separate posts you used Oshawa....thought you were making a particular point about Oshawa.

IOkay, I concede. Your right. There isn't more congestion or traffic that there used to be. Good grief, where did I ever say that all of them are Mississauga-Oshawa commuters????? Sure, most aren't. But I bet at least 1% are. And certainly many, if not most, of those employed, work outside of Durham, and are using the 401.

Of course there is more congestion......everywhere. You did, however, state (in quite a strong) fashion that the Mississauga-Oshawa commuters were the source of our congestion (unless I read that wrong....in which case I apologize).

Simply economics. Look at how congestion suddenly vanished in parts of London when they put congestion charges in ... though they later failed by electing a right-wing wingnut who proceeded to remove some of the charges, and failed to increase it to keep the congestion at bay.

You set the congestion charges to a level where the highway keeps moving. So it varies by location, and time of day. Then you jack up the prices until the traffic starts to move.

London? We're those road tolls? I thought they were a congestion charge around the city? London also has a far more developed transit system offering far more people an alternative method of bypassing the charge.

As you said above...the flaked about tolls don't match the $.17/km cost of GO you calculated. Tolls in The GTA may be an effective way to raise revenue but they will not magically make congestion disappear.

 

[nfitz]

You did, however, state (in quite a strong) fashion that the Mississauga-Oshawa commuters were the source of our congestion (unless I read that wrong....in which case I apologize).

If I did state that, it wasn't what I meant to say ... I was being lazy.

London? We're those road tolls? I thought they were a congestion charge around the city?

They were congestion charges. If you crossed into a certain part of the city, you had to pay the toll, which was a congestion charge. You get the same effect on regular toll roads as well. Which is why the 407 actually moves in traffic - though the off-peak pricing is badly done in order to maximize profit, rather than control traffic.

London also has a far more developed transit system offering far more people an alternative method of bypassing the charge.

The tube and railway network were in dire straights when the congestion charge was introduced almost a decade ago. Poorly maintained, frequently out-of-service, overcrowded. I don't think anyone in London thinks they have a superior transit system. They complain incessantly about how poor and broken it is. Though they have put a lot of money in over the last decade, with a lot more over the next decade. Unfortunately the reliability improvements and upgrades to the Tube have resulted in significant ridership increases, so the congestion is still very bad - and worse then ever, the moment there is the slightest delay.

As you said above...the flaked about tolls don't match the $.17/km cost of GO you calculated. Tolls in The GTA may be an effective way to raise revenue but they will not magically make congestion disappear.

Then you raise the toll rates until they do. It's a far more effective tool than simply raising gas taxes, which does nothing to control which route people take, and psychologically isn't as effective at discouraging long commutes.

That being said, I doubt that any government is going to have the balls to put tolls in, in my lifetime. I'd expect a suite of other charges, such as vehicle licence fees, sales taxes, gas taxes, parking taxes (heck, raise the Green P rates ... hard to understand why better staffed, better maintained, city lots seem to undercut adjacent fly-by-night lots), property taxes, etc. to be employed rather than a toll, except on new facilities.

 

[TOareaFan]

^sure, London had reliability issues but what I meant was that at least they had full day big-directional service from pretty well all directions into the city. So people had a choice of the charge or the transit. I don't think that is the case in the GTA.

I actually think we will see tolls.....but I think they will be levied by the City and only on the Gardiner and DVP.....just not sure how effective that will be.

 

[gweed123]

^sure, London had reliability issues but what I meant was that at least they had full day big-directional service from pretty well all directions into the city. So people had a choice of the charge or the transit. I don't think that is the case in the GTA.

I actually think we will see tolls.....but I think they will be levied by the City and only on the Gardiner and DVP.....just not sure how effective that will be.

This is why I personally think that GO REX (or GO electrification in general) should be financed through debt to begin with, with all 400 series highways in the GTA starting tolling the day that GO REX opens. Not only will there be a shiny new system in place, the cost of doing your current commute by car is also going to go up.

If by contrast you begin tolling before adequate transit is in place, all you're going to do is piss people off, and push them onto an already overcrowded and barely effective transit system.

Use the toll money to pay down the interest and part of the principle every month on that debt. The amount of money the tolls should bring in will be more than enough to pay down the interest and the principle over a 30 year period, and fund some additional projects on the side.

 

[andrewpmk]

Imposing tolls on non residents only: bad idea. Some arbitrary line on Steeles Avenue should not determine whether you pay tolls or not. Also, almost as many people commute out of Toronto as commute in to Toronto. Why should a person who lives in Toronto who drives on the DVP to get to Markham not pay a toll while a person who lives in Markham who drives on the DVP to get to Toronto pay a toll? The purpose of these tolls is to encourage people who work in Toronto to move to Toronto and people who work in Markham to move to Markham.

Also any road tolling scheme needs to avoid charging excessively high toll rates (particularly during off peak times) which lead to the road being used far below capacity. Highway 407 charges high off peak tolls to maximize profit which leads to it being underused while Highway 7 suffers from traffic jams all day 7 days a week. Tolls should be very low, or free during off peak hours. Otherwise people who use the Gardiner will switch to Lake Shore East/Queensway/Dundas/Bloor, and people who use the DVP will switch to Avenue/Yonge/Mt Pleasant/Bayview/Leslie/Don Mills/Victoria Park/Woodbine/Lake Shore East. Charging only the amount of tolls needed to decongest the highways (which may mean no tolls at certain off peak times) will minimize spillover traffic.

 

[TOareaFan]

They were congestion charges. If you crossed into a certain part of the city, you had to pay the toll, which was a congestion charge. You get the same effect on regular toll roads as well.

Sorry, I meant to say this earlier. To me there is a difference between the type of congestion charge London brought in and road tolls that are suggested for Toronto/GTA.

London was dealing with a congested core so they essentially drew a line and said "bring your car in here and you pay a fee. We don't care if you drove 10km or 100km you pay the same fee". This is appropriate for cities with very congested cores. That, I believe was the case in London. Not so much Toronto.

Tolls that charge by distance levy larger fees on you the further away you live. So someone from Oshawa ( ) will pay more to get to King and Bay than someone from Whitby. This is more appropriate for cities with congestion leading to the core. I think this is more descriptive of the Toronto situation.

 

[ssiguy2]

This "move closer to your job is" is crap. These transportation "experts" say this all the time like they are somehow enlightening somebody. Most people would love to live near where they work but it is not at all possible.
This reminds of the time when the City of Vancouver held a meeting at City Hall and of course all the "experts" were there telling people to live closer to their work. Then a woman who worked at City Hall abruptly asked when she was going to be getting her 300% raise as that is how much more take home pay should would need to afford anything on the extremely expensive Westside where Vancouver City Hall is located. Needless to say the raise was not forthcoming and all the politicians and "experts" just sat there stupified with nothing to say with eyes glazed over. For many living near where they work is not a financial option.
Also many of these transportation "experts" still think that this is 1955 and everyone's last name is Cleaver.
Surprise............most Moms now work and moving close to Mom's work may mean Dad's is much further away. Also this is not a 1955 work enviornment. The notion of working for one employer all your life is LONG since gone and people change work places very often these days by choice for a better job or by force by layoffs. Many people actually work 2 jobs and jobs are much less centralized than they were 50 years ago when Mr.Cleaver commuted downtown for work and went home to the suburbs 9 to 5. Cleaver also didn't have to work on weekends or late night as every job was 9 to 5 either at the office, factory, or even stores and banks as everything closed earlier.
We live in a completely different world than Mr.Cleaver did and this notion that just "move to near where you work" is untenable for most.