Road Safety & Vision Zero Plan

[11th]

Driving through North York Centre a few minutes ago, I felt disheartened about the curb lane patios from a safety perspective. It would take just one inattentive driver to create a mass cas. I don't imagine the planters have much rigidity or anchoring to them. This area needs the pedestrianization/traffic calming rebuild asap. Plus the patios look so unattractive with their orange pylons and crime scene like tape. And it didn't seem particularly enticing to be inches away from heavy traffic. But it was great to see many people out and about again with the city vibrancy returning.

They have lowered the speed limit to 40km/h in that section. As for heavy traffic, I don't think there's a real solution for that. Ring roads were supposed to serve as bypass, but area residents will be up-in-arms over that.
Even with speed limit lowered, I'd still choose Yonge over Doris or Beecroft outside rush. 40km/h seems torturous on those wide ring roads, as opposed to Yonge, where there's some urbanity.

 

[lenaitch]

Driving through North York Centre a few minutes ago, I felt disheartened about the curb lane patios from a safety perspective. It would take just one inattentive driver to create a mass cas. I don't imagine the planters have much rigidity or anchoring to them. This area needs the pedestrianization/traffic calming rebuild asap. Plus the patios look so unattractive with their orange pylons and crime scene like tape. And it didn't seem particularly enticing to be inches away from heavy traffic. But it was great to see many people out and about again with the city vibrancy returning.

Regarding appearance, you have to remember that the vendors are having to cobble together what they can with what they can source and what they can afford. Most have had little to no cash flow for over a year, and many materials and supplies are still hard to source and/or expensive. I remember last Fall, many were wanting to install propane patio heaters to expend their season but they were not to be found. There are no doubt several legal issues surrounding permanent shelters on public property, so if a restauranteur is faced with putting up something, anything, temporary, to bring in bucks, it's hard to blame them for doing it on the cheap.

 

[allengeorge]

if a restauranteur is faced with putting up something, anything, temporary, to bring in bucks, it's hard to blame them for doing it on the cheap.

If Toronto Council decides to make CafeTO permanent and follows up with $$$ for streetscape improvements you’ll see dramatic improvements in restaurant patios. Heck - in NYC, simply announcing that street patios were permanent caused restauranteurs to invest significantly in the quality of their patios; after all, no one wants to spend money on something that may disappear.

 

[crs1026]

I guess the idea of greater setbacks for new developments is a bridge too far ?

- Paul

 

[Northern Light]

I guess the idea of greater setbacks for new developments is a bridge too far ?

- Paul

There are minimum sidewalk sizes set out in different area plans.

But redevelopment of 2-5km stretches of main road, even in Toronto are 20-30 year time horizons for the most part.

*****

Also, I can't say I feel the need to preserve vast amounts of on-street parking, which is really what this displaces.

It may represent an extra lane of traffic for 2 hours per day on weekdays, but otherwise, its a linear parking lot.

I'd much prefer cafes.

 

[lenaitch]

If Toronto Council decides to make CafeTO permanent and follows up with $$$ for streetscape improvements you’ll see dramatic improvements in restaurant patios. Heck - in NYC, simply announcing that street patios were permanent caused restauranteurs to invest significantly in the quality of their patios; after all, no one wants to spend money on something that may disappear.

So how does it work in other jurisdictions? Do the vendors lease space from the municipality? No doubt there are rules about things like maximum area, retained public space, design dos and donts, etc. Toronto loves rules.

 

[allengeorge]

So how does it work in other jurisdictions? Do the vendors lease space from the municipality? No doubt there are rules about things like maximum area, retained public space, design dos and donts, etc. Toronto loves rules.

Yes - Toronto loves rules, and will rule-ify anything to death. In my opinion that’s a big reason why it’s a less ‘fun’ and dynamic city than it could be.

At any rate, for NYC (the city I brought up) I do not believe you have to lease space from the city. It looks like all you have to do is self-certify that you meet requirements, and build a structure that conforms to regulations: https://www1.nyc.gov/html/dot/html/pedestrians/openrestaurants.shtml

 

[allengeorge]

Some observations on the centerline hardening pilot:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1421979829952552968

My take is that these bumps are too small for Toronto. In NYC average speeds are lower and intersections narrower, which means that drivers are slower into the intersection and more likely to notice the bump. No so in Toronto. I also question why the bumps are so low? Snowplows and emergency vehicles?

 

[Admiral Beez]

The issue here is homelessness. If you just kick them off the road, they'll go somewhere else. The solution, of course, is to tackle the base issues of homelessness, something that will never happen.

I’m fine with the panhandlers going somewhere else. Begging has been around since humankind, it’s not going away. There is no solution that‘s been shown to work in any North American city I can think of.

But let them beg, just follow the rules. There are literally thousands of places to beg for money beyond the roadside and the few other places outlined in the SSA.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1422270581366575107

 

[W. K. Lis]

 

[mike0001]

 

[DSC]

So how does it work in other jurisdictions? Do the vendors lease space from the municipality? No doubt there are rules about things like maximum area, retained public space, design dos and donts, etc. Toronto loves rules.

Most use of public space requires a licence in Toronto - the 'regular' boulevard cafes normally pay per square meter and can be removed if the City or a utility needs to excavate below them. The CafeTO info is at: https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/92ca-TSCafeTO-Guidelines2021.pdf The fees seem to have been waived for all kinds of cafes in 2021.

 

[Northern Light]

The Forest Hill BIA is implementing some streetscape improvements which will further Vision Zero objectives.

They are implementing bumpouts with landscaping at 3 intersections along Spadina Road.

The project is detailed in this report:

https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2021/te/bgrd/backgroundfile-170043.pdf

4 parking spaces on Spadina will be removed as a result.

Images from said Report :

 

[TheTigerMaster]

These are used along Ava Road in Forest Hill. It's an extremely effective solution. Drivers crossing the intersection pretty much have no choice but to slow down to 10 km/h.

This really should be part of the design standard for streets signed 40 km/h and below. I'm certain this measure alone would near eliminate pedestrian fatalities at these intersections.

 

[TRONto]

Where did the sidewalk go on the right side?