Referendum on Transit City needed

[lafard]

Yes, to offset the DRL costs, it is important to remember that those two or 3 km between Sherbourne and Spadina will be quite possibly the most complex, expensive pieces of infrastructure built in Canadian history. The connection to YUS and intervening tunnel will almost certainly cost more for that 1km than the entire Finch or Sheppard LRT. Depending on complexity of building a station at say Bay and Wellington - something that puts the Queen/Dufferin realignment to shame in complexity - , it could cost more than both LRTs combined.

 

[The Mad Navigator]

Well here's what I would do, and what is probably most politically feasible:

1) All approved Transit City funding, except that going toward underground portions of Sheppard, gets diverted toward underground parts of the Eglinton LRT. Construction starts ASAP.
2) Underground portions of Sheppard still get built, BUT the design is changed to be subway instead. Construction starts ASAP.
3) All remaining aspects of Transit City are canceled.
4) All pending but not released Transit City funding goes toward building the DRL, as a subway, in the hopefully not too distant future.

The advantages are:
a) TBMs and many LRT vehicles are still purchased and put to use, reducing wasted money and cancellation fees.
b) The LRT tunnels beginning at Don Mills would have represented a permanent roadblock at the east end of the Sheppard subway, but are replaced with subway at almost no change in cost.
c) With the surface component to the Eglinton line gone, souped up LRT consisting of much longer train sets can be used without conflict, and easily accommodate future capacity needs.
d) The silly parts of Transit City that would either need to be replaced with subway rather soon anyway, or are just not needed at all, are canceled.
e) We instantly have money for the DRL!

EDIT: Also, Rob Ford gets his subways, left leaning councilors get to keep most of Transit City, and Rob Ford can ditch the Queen streetcar for subway instead depending on the alignment. Most importantly, all of the funding is approved!

Hey Chuck, what fantasy land do you live in?

 

[W. K. Lis]

EGLINTON should be from JANE to DON MILLS underground... If thats the two spots where they are going to connect with future lines it should be Underground...

You do know that there is a pond at the south-east corner of Jane and Eglinton? That whole Eglinton Flats was flooded during Hurricane Hazel, back in 1954. It would be cheaper to keep the rapid transit in that area higher than most of the roadway, just in case.

 

[Chuck]

Hey Chuck, what fantasy land do you live in?

Less of a fantasy land than Rob Ford's! Transit City is not just going to disappear, nor will Ford magically come up with money out of nowhere to build his pipe dreams. The Eglinton underground LRT will be like a subway, and is far more important than surface LRT on Don Mills, Sheppard, Jane, Finch, and any other Transit City lines. Let's fast track Eglinton since the province already agrees in principal with it, and swap LRT with subway for the underground portion of Sheppard for not much of a cost difference.

The fundamental idea behind my proposal is to work with Transit City as much as possible rather than just write it off entirely. I believe that extending the underground portion of our transit system will likely do as much to reduce travel times by bringing everyone closer to an underground station as would providing surface LRT to everyone's doorstep, only to still be 15 km from a subway station.

 

[Asterix]

The Eglinton underground LRT will be like a subway, and is far more important than surface LRT on Don Mills, Sheppard, Jane, Finch, and any other Transit City lines. Let's fast track Eglinton since the province already agrees in principal with it, and swap LRT with subway for the underground portion of Sheppard for not much of a cost difference.

The underground portion of Sheppard is for barely 1.2km of the proposed 12km for Phase I. What would be the logic in extending the Sheppard subway one stop to Consumers Rd, which is certainly not any kind of terminus for feeder bus routes?

As for fast tracking, not only does the province already agree in principal to the Sheppard LRT line, but they have actually started spending real dollars on real construction (dollars spent on Eglinton have been for planning and designing with shovels slated to go in the ground in the new year. Maybe. Ask Rob Ford.)

 

[adma]

You do know that there is a pond at the south-east corner of Jane and Eglinton? That whole Eglinton Flats was flooded during Hurricane Hazel, back in 1954. It would be cheaper to keep the rapid transit in that area higher than most of the roadway, just in case.

Yeah. For the "totally underground" fetishists, I suppose that the B-D fails because it crosses the Humber and Don on bridges, etc...

 

[nfitz]

And we all know that there are some good chunks of the Yonge and Spadina lines outside. Even Sheppard is above ground where it crosses the Don - though they put a roof and side-walls on it, so you don't notice it.

 

[GenerationW]

Really - your quoting Wikipedia? A tertiary source? Come on, anyone can edit that ... and I already have.

Well of course you did!

So is it quotable now?

 

[Chuck]

The underground portion of Sheppard is for barely 1.2km of the proposed 12km for Phase I. What would be the logic in extending the Sheppard subway one stop to Consumers Rd, which is certainly not any kind of terminus for feeder bus routes?)

What would be the logic in building an LRT tunnel that permanently ends the Sheppard subway at Don Mills, especially when converting this small segment to a subway would cost about the same? If the Sheppard surface LRT still goes ahead, then fine. I'd just really hope that if nothing else, Ford can have the underground part switched to subway. For anything that is built today, we need to consider the impact on future transit expansion.

 

[Asterix]

What would be the logic in building an LRT tunnel that permanently ends the Sheppard subway at Don Mills, especially when converting this small segment to a subway would cost about the same?

Because if it doesn't make economic sense to extend the Sheppard subway way out east, but rather serve that demand with LRT, then it makes more sense to have the transfer at Don Mills where you will be able to link up with other surface routes.

For anything that is built today, we need to consider the impact on future transit expansion.

If expert forecasts do not predict subway level demand for the next generation further east on Sheppard, then does it make sense to build something now considering the impact of something that may or may not be needed even thirty years from now?

In that time frame, we'd probably be very lucky to have the DRL east built and extended up to Don Mills and Sheppard, something that is probably a higher priority (and would have greater network benefit) than building Sheppard further east as subway.

 

[lafard]

The reason the LRT runs to Don Mills is so that people transferring from Sheppard to Don Mills LRT don't have to transfer twice and ride the subway one stop. If both lines are built then the westbound to north and southbound connections will become more important than straight-through Yonge-street bound travel, particularly if DM goes north of Steeles as York region has suggested they want.

 

[editor51]

We wrote an article about this topic just after the election and had alot of feedback in favour of the idea of a referendum to settle some issues.
http://www.mytorontonews.com/2010/10/31/toronto-may-need-a-referendum-to-settle-leftright-fight/

 

[js97]

Why don't we have a referendum on every major policy that's implemented?
let's have a referendum on:

-contracting out more city employees (garbage, street cleaners, administrative bureacrats)
-existence of street cars!
-bike lanes on Jarvis, bike lanes on arterials!
-widening the gardiner, the DVP,
-reduce council from 44 to 22
- Taxes in general - Elimination of land transfer tax!
heck, why don't we just go as far as only tax per utility use. i.e. no. of toilets,
- eliminate funding for special interest/social programs at the 'city level' (There is a big difference between city level, and provincial health care)
- and my favourite one: A resident 'head' tax. Maybe at about 1000 dollars per individual per year.

 

[SlickFranky]

Why don't we have a referendum on every major policy that's implemented?

Why don't we? Because that would be retarded. We operate a representative democracy for a reason. The average citizen is not well enough informed to making these types of desicions, and will generally vote solely based on his/her own best interest (rather than in the interest of the greater good). This is why we elect representatives (councillors, mpps, etc) who are able to devote large amounts of time to understanding the issues and making informed decisions.

This is all pretty basic stuff here...hopefully you were being sarcastic in asking such a moronic question.

 

[Asterix]

and will generally vote solely based on his/her own best interest (rather than in the interest of the greater good).

Witness California and their various propositions to demand new programs while simultaneously refusing to raise the funds to pay for them.