Racism in Toronto Workforce

[TrickyRicky]

In defence of "canadian experience"?

So in previous posts I've argued my opinion that bias, including those which are racially based not only exist here in this city but have profound impact on hiring practices and socialization. There is also likely no strong argument to discount foreign based credentials and knowledge from a technical standpoint. In many countries entry to say professional programs is so competitive that it takes a higher calibre of aptitude then it would to complete Canadian based programs. This however does not necessarily suggest that "canadian experience" is irrelevent. If a group of employees forms a team, the performance of the group often supercedes the importance of individual merit. Using this argument one can follow that regardless of competency the inability of an employee to integrate with the group both functionally and socially is a detriment to the performance of the company at large. The fact that an applicant has no "Canadian experience" does not suggest he/she would not be able to integrate with the work group culture here...but than having a degree in a subject does not guarantee competency in the subject matter either.

 

[Chuck]

I think that the requirement for Canadian experience is a lame one, although I think that it has more to do with the bottom line than it does racism. Those with Canadian experience already know how to function within the Canadian business world, which means that less training is required - they know how to conduct business here, are familiar with Canadian policies, know our building codes, etc. These soft skills exist independently of technical merit, but are every bit as important to an employer. Training is expensive and represents a significant risk because there's no guarantee that the new hire will work out and stay with the company. The less training that is required, the quicker that person becomes profitable.

In most of the companies that I have worked for, I have been in the minority being white and born in Canada. However, just about all of the members of a visible minority that I have worked with tended to have been either schooled in Canada, or have had Canadian experience. It has been uncommon in just about all of my jobs to see a brand new immigrant hired. I can think of hundreds of words to describe this situation, and many are along the lines of unfortunate, unfair, and discriminatory. But one word that I would NOT use to describe this situation is racism.

 

[Dichotomy]

My partner arrived here from Brazil just over 6 years ago with zero English. When he lived in Brazil, he made very good money working for a large, multinational firm. When we met, he had 3 months of English. Although it was fun and romantic in the beginning, he has since spent 6 years cramming for English courses: from home bought Cds, to ESL courses to courses at George Brown. We have no kids and no distractions. We also have means and he is the most determined person I have ever met.
Here's the punchline: after 6 years and 4 months of struggling, he is speaking and reading at about a grade 3 or 4 level. I can only imagine what our embassies are telling people from countries who do not even share our alphabet and who will have to hold down 2 jobs then come home to a house full of children, what their future will be like. How are they ever to get the job they are being misled into thinking they will get.
Now, think about that the next time a doctor, nurse or other professional is struggling to 're-certify.' Wouldn't you want to make damned sure that 'scalpel' is not confused with some other tool while you are laying bleeding on a stretcher?
Learning a language is far more than just reading a few books. You are learning a culture. Those of us born here take 15+ years, absorbing the environment around us from birth to 'fit in,' and frankly many of my fellow Canadians can't read or write beyond a grade 8 or 9 level anyway - but that is a failure of our crappy school system.
A very wealthy dentist friend of ours moved to Montreal from Brazil, enrolled in some dentist college, gave up, then moved to Chicago to try the same. He actually has studied English in Brazil for a long time before coming here. He was not ready for the degree of difficulty in having to learn the technical words in his vocation all over again, so he gave up and flew home to resume his practice there.

Here is my point: I am sure most employers could give a damn about the color of one's skin. However, ability to relate the the culture around you and provide a good level of service - whatever that 'service' may be, is not something easily learned or taught. In this highly competitive business world, the ability to have employees with good communication skills is of paramount importance.

Twenty years ago, it may have been quaint or even worldly to get bad service in a restaurant or at a government wicket, or whatever, because the person tripped over their English, or because they mis-read your body language. But that novelty has worn off.

A recent experience at a Swiss Chalet (of all places) where 3 young women could not get my order straight until a manager had to intervene, was so embarassing to my partner that he was distraught afterward. I was angry and he was depressed.

Friends of ours that hang out exclusively with their Portuguese friends are not advancing. Five years ago, some of them had English better than my partner's - now his is better than theirs. He steadfastly refuses to hang out with other Brazilans or Portugese because he understands the dire need to get ahead. I wonder how many other 'new Canadians' are as enlightened as he?
I have seen the immigration system from the inside. People being sworn in who required interpreters. Driver's licenses that can be written in any language of choice. This is what we are demanding today.

Again, 20 years ago, quaint and novel. Now, I am not so sure.

We are paying a price for multiculturalism. I hope we know what that price will eventually cost us. These people are being lied to before they arrive here, and many of them are becoming bitter and disillusioned. I feel sorry for a taxi driver with a PHD, but I don't care for some of the comical miscommunications that have occured between my partner and I over the years to happen on a operating table.

Flame away.

 

[theowne]

There's clearly something wrong when you make a post with the intention of being flamed for it.

New immigrants to the country sometimes face a barrier (depends on where you're coming from, and it's not just a European thing either. An immigrant from Singapore or India will most likely have better english than someone from Germany.), perhaps in language, perhaps in culture. This barrier disappears with the next generation who grow up in the language and culture. The sacrifice is that the parents may be forced to give up their advanced qualifications and work in jobs that are beneath them, and that is a sacrifice many immigrants are willing to make for the benefit of their children.

 

[Hydrogen]

Dichotomy, while I understand your frustration, there is a difference between multiculturalism, immigration policy and linguistic requirements. Also, blaming a perceived limited level of educational achievement on a "crappy" school system is to nullify the responsibilities of every individual to pursue additional learning throughout life. You don't need to go to school in order to acquire new knowledge.

There can be little doubt that learning a new language in adulthood can be a profoundly frustrating experience for many people. As a child of immigrants, I can recall elderly relatives who moved to Canada and could never pick up English or French to any degree of fluency. The younger generation had no choice but to learn the language as it was required for work. Their children, in turn, had a very different experience by virtue of being born and raised in this culture.

As a side note, while living in Montreal, I can recall how many francophones (and anglophones, too) struggled with new specialized language or nomenclature that was devised by the Quebec government in order to "protect" the French language in that Province. In the end, there was no choice but to slog through it all.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

My partner arrived here from Brazil just over 6 years ago with zero English. When he lived in Brazil, he made very good money working for a large, multinational firm. When we met, he had 3 months of English...Here's the punchline: after 6 years and 4 months of struggling, he is speaking and reading at about a grade 3 or 4 level.

A recent experience at a Swiss Chalet (of all places) where 3 young women could not get my order straight until a manager had to intervene, was so embarassing to my partner that he was distraught afterward. I was angry and he was depressed.

Quite frankly though, your partner wouldn't (and shouldn't) have made it through the immigration process given his English aptitude, given what you're bemoaning. Interesting how perspective changes when someone is put in a different position.

AoD

 

[Admiral Beez]

Here is my point: I am sure most employers could give a damn about the color of one's skin. However, ability to relate the the culture around you and provide a good level of service - whatever that 'service' may be, is not something easily learned or taught. In this highly competitive business world, the ability to have employees with good communication skills is of paramount importance.

Australia does immigration policy far better than Canada. They pre-screen all potential immigrants for advanced English ability, and do not permit family reunification beyond your own kids. I've read that Australia's immigrants are thus more success than ours' in integrating and finding job relevant jobs.

I do not understand why anyone from a booming economic star like Brazil, India or China who had skills and education would move to Canada.

 

[Dichotomy]

Quite frankly though, your partner wouldn't (and shouldn't) have made it through the immigration process given his English aptitude, given what you're bemoaning. Interesting how perspective changes when someone is put in a different position.

AoD

Under the 'family class' all requirements are out the window. I sponsored him as my spouse. Still, during his landing ceremony, he understood the proceedings fine. He later remarked that a bus should be waiting outside the federal building to take all those who required an interpreter back to the airport: since it takes a minimum of 2 years to 'land,' clearly most of these people weren't even trying. Then again, the immigration industry has legions of interpreters, lawyers and advocates just waiting to help these poor, hapless souls work the system.
My partner was under no pretenses or illusions when he came to Canada; in fact, he only planned on staying here for 6 months, with plansto meet up with friends in England - but his meeting me ended those plans.

My point is that we are not demanding enough of these people and that they are being thrown to the wolves once they are here. We've had a few acquaintances go back to South America out of frustration. Frankly, I don't have much sympathy for them because they aren't being very honest with themselves if they think uprooting themselves to a completely different country and culture (let alone climate!) is going to be easy.
Most of these people are opportunists anyway. They are leaving decent jobs and family at home because they think Canada is the promised land. When they realize it is not, they are disappointed.
My 3 years of learning Portuguese has been fraught with disappointment; but at least there is a shared alphabet and some common pronunciations. Non-European languages are an entirely different ballgame and without communication skills you are nothing in today's world. This is not the world of 75 years ago where you could dig ditches or work in a sweat shop for minimum wage. You need to be 21 and have a special license just to drive a truck. Is it any wonder studies show that more recent immigrants are not settling in very well, as compared to earlier generations?

Here's a real zinger for discussion: why are is the assumption always made that we are attracting the brightest and best? If they can't make it in their own country, why do we assume they will here? When I've posed that question to immigrant friends of ours, they really have no answer. I've made the assertion that they are, in fact, betraying their own countries by 'giving up.' After all, if they are that determined and resourceful, why don't they stay and fight for change in their own country (that they profess so readily to love). If they are so willing to sell their soul to make an 'easier' life for themselves, we need to ask ourselves if these are the type of people we want to help us build our country. Just food for thought, is all.

 

[Dichotomy]

Australia does immigration policy far better than Canada. They pre-screen all potential immigrants for advanced English ability, and do not permit family reunification beyond your own kids. I've read that Australia's immigrants are thus more success than ours' in integrating and finding job relevant jobs.

I do not understand why anyone from a booming economic star like Brazil, India or China who had skills and education would move to Canada.

There is the million dollar question. Is it the cream of the crop, or mere opportunists that we are getting?

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Under the 'family class' all requirements are out the window. I sponsored him as my spouse.

I don't care what the current policy is and who sponsored whom - the fact of the matter is - his English, like you've said, is sub-par, and his ability to communicate is limited. Think of all the frustrations government officials and others had to deal with! What happens if he had to go to a hospital and you weren't there, and that doctors and other workers had to communicate with him urgently? Are you saying that we should just, for the sake of enforcing our notion of what immigrants should and shouldn't do, deal with him in English without caring whether he understand what was communicated, in spite of these matters having potentially severe consequences?

This is not the world of 75 years ago where you could dig ditches or work in a sweat shop for minimum wage. You need to be 21 and have a special license just to drive a truck. Is it any wonder studies show that more recent immigrants are not settling in very well, as compared to earlier generations?

Or is it because of the growing gap between the rich and the poor, which has more to do with structural changes in the economy? (i.e. decline of relatively high paying blue collar/industry jobs and the increase in low-paying, flex-hour service sector ones?)

I've made the assertion that they are, in fact, betraying their own countries by 'giving up.' After all, if they are that determined and resourceful, why don't they stay and fight for change in their own country (that they profess so readily to love).

Perhaps we should apply the same maxim to Canadians who for reason of opportunties left the country and worked elsewhere - do we label them as "betrayers"? Come to think of it, unless you're First Nation, you are by default someone, or someone belonging to the lineage of those who "didn't stay and fight for change in their own country".

If they are so willing to sell their soul to make an 'easier' life for themselves, we need to ask ourselves if these are the type of people we want to help us build our country. Just food for thought, is all.

Actually, the real "food for thought" is when you step into a Tim Horton's or other establishment in the service sector and have a look at who's serving you. Think about what happens if these individuals aren't here and how much more your double-double is going to cost you - then think about "help us build our country" and "selling one's soul". I don't see your average Canadian born clamouring to be the ones serving coffee, cleaning up the washrooms in the office towers after 5 or otherwise work as taxi drivers. I wonder why - then I wonder who are really the ones working hard for the country.

AoD

 

[Hydrogen]

Actually, the real "food for thought" is when you step into a Tim Horton's or other establishment in the service sector and have a look at who's serving you. Think about what happens if these individuals aren't here and how much more your double-double is going to cost you - then think about "help us build our country" and "selling one's soul". I don't see your average Canadian born clamouring to be the ones serving coffee, cleaning up the washrooms in the office towers after 5 or otherwise work as taxi drivers. I wonder why - then I wonder who are really the ones working hard for the country.

A very good observation. These people are not here as "guest workers" but to live in the country and become citizens. They are working and contributing to the society. In turn, they should have reasonable access to affordable educational opportunities that allows them to further themselves if they choose to do so. The same goes for their children as well.

You need not form a policy that revolves only around an unrealistic pretense of bringing in only the "best and the brightest." You can actually try and generate that outcome right here. That quality goes a long way in promoting the idea of "opportunity" for everyone.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Indeed. Instead we've become a bunch of priviledged whiners throwing temper tandrums (or get depressed) when we couldn't get our quarter chicken dinner exactly how we want it the moment we want it. Who is undeserving of building our country now?

In fact, as a country we should be a tad cognizant of our history in exploiting the labour of immigrants in building our country - from Chinese railway workers, Eastern European farmers, Italian and Portuguese construction workers to South Asian service sector workers. We're just letting others do what we didn't want or couldn't afford to do ourselves, in exchange for citizenship (if that).

AoD

 

[theowne]

You didn't bother to respond to my earlier post, but I'll continue anyways...

I've made the assertion that they are, in fact, betraying their own countries by 'giving up.' After all, if they are that determined and resourceful, why don't they stay and fight for change in their own country (that they profess so readily to love). If they are so willing to sell their soul to make an 'easier' life for themselves, we need to ask ourselves if these are the type of people we want to help us build our country. Just food for thought, is all.

So you really believe this? That immigrants are just cowards escaping to Canada and selling their souls? You think that the average immigrant, who is giving up everything that he knows in order to take him (and his family, usually) to a new territory, is doing it because he thinks it will be easy? I think the world would be a better place if people learned to try and examine things from other people's perspective before taking an opinion on it, and this rant seems to exemplify the reason I do this.

Are all the Canadians with British, German or French backgrounds cowards who betrayed Britain, Germany or France? People of Eastern European descent who immigrated for a better opportunity? Did they sell their souls? Why don't they get the same treatment from you?

P.S. As for English literacy, the Toronto Star reported that the best results on the English literacy test came from people who's first language was Serbian or Hindi, not English. The subtle excuse for European-language speakers is noted though, even though former colonies around the world have greater English proficiency than an average Pole or German.

There is the million dollar question. Is it the cream of the crop, or mere opportunists that we are getting?

In the United States census, nearly every single legal immigration group, apart from refugees, had higher earnings, high skill occupation or education than the general populace. The biggest difference was with immigrants from Asia - notable Indians and Chinese. They were in some cases double or triple the numbers for the general population.

I don't know the numbers for Canada, but our points system ends up being the stricter immigration policy. So if America gets that much quality immigrants with their fairly loose system, we should be doing even better. If we're not, then perhaps the question we should be pondering is why that potential is being squandered with what we already have.

On a side note, I find the apparent insult of "opportunists" strange. Many of the native Canadian population is descended from people who came to find opportunity for themselves and their children. My neighbor's family is descended from "mere opportunists" who left post-war Germany to come to Canada. The other neighbor also came from "mere opportunists" who immigrated from Poland.

 

[theman23]

In the United States census, nearly every single legal immigration group, apart from refugees, had higher earnings, high skill occupation or education than the general populace. The biggest difference was with immigrants from Asia - notable Indians and Chinese. They were in some cases double or triple the numbers for the general population.

I don't know the numbers for Canada, but our points system ends up being the stricter immigration policy. So if America gets that much quality immigrants with their fairly loose system, we should be doing even better. If we're not, then perhaps the question we should be pondering is why that potential is being squandered with what we already have.

From the numbers I remember seeing only a year or so ago, the only Asian immigrant group whose average earnings exceed those of the general populace are Japanese-Canadians. I've been unable to find the numbers again, but I have no reason to lie. As for education, I think its generally well-known (and quite easy to find statistics to prove) that immigrants tend to have a higher level of education. That doesn't necessarily make them "the best and the brightest", but I think Dichotomy has set up a bit of a strawman in his post anyways.

Now, think about that the next time a doctor, nurse or other professional is struggling to 're-certify.' Wouldn't you want to make damned sure that 'scalpel' is not confused with some other tool while you are laying bleeding on a stretcher?

I think you're grossly overstating the problem. Yes, there can be a language barrier sometimes, but not to the extent that you're describing. Most MDs/MBBS that come here are not family class immigrants, and are usually proficient in English. What they do lack is any experience in the Canadian health care system, which is why even immigrant doctors from the Anglosphere (particularly the UK and Australia, since the situation with the USA is a bit different) have trouble obtaining positions in Canada.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Actually, the real "food for thought" is when you step into a Tim Horton's or other establishment in the service sector and have a look at who's serving you. Think about what happens if these individuals aren't here and how much more your double-double is going to cost you - then think about "help us build our country" and "selling one's soul". I don't see your average Canadian born clamouring to be the ones serving coffee, cleaning up the washrooms in the office towers after 5 or otherwise work as taxi drivers. I wonder why - then I wonder who are really the ones working hard for the country.

I'd bet real money that the average Tim Horton's worker is Canadian born, only young. The bakers in the back always seem to be middle aged Sri Lankan-born men and women, though. But a Canadian-born white person with perfect English may not be hired for a Tim Horton's or janitorial job even if they wanted to if the franchise or company was operated by people who only hire from certain groups, or from their family and friends. And lots of people want janitorial jobs...a position with a school board is more desirable than you think, for exmaple.

I think you're grossly overstating the problem. Yes, there can be a language barrier sometimes, but not to the extent that you're describing. Most MDs/MBBS that come here are not family class immigrants, and are usually proficient in English. What they do lack is any experience in the Canadian health care system, which is why even immigrant doctors from the Anglosphere (particularly the UK and Australia, since the situation with the USA is a bit different) have trouble obtaining positions in Canada.

Consider Britain born and raised and schooled Dr. Corday's first shift in Chicago on ER...Carter and Greene and the nurses had a hell of a time trying to quickly decipher what these "tube thoracostomies" were that she kept demanding. She could have killed several TV extras! Eventually, she packed up and went back to England (but not because of language issues...she was widowed and then fired).