Steve_D
New Member
You missed the gist.
I still don't follow. Discrimination is amoral and should not perpetraited on innocent people. Everyone should be given the same benefit of the doubt and not be singled out on the basis of their race, gender or other differential traits.
At the same though we should hold accountable those who cheat the system, by pretending they're benevolent people but are just as bigoted as their nemeses.
Hence "do unto others, as you'd want done onto you!"
...Straight-acting gays however can blend in, while visible minorities are differentiated from a mile away.
That's the problem in of itself though. The racism/segregation here isn't as visible and recognizable as it is in the United States. Hence unless you're personally a victim of it, most citizens are unaware that such discrimination can and often does go on in Canada.
True, I agree. Personal biases can often compromise one's objectivity when examining these issues.
One racist that gets away with harming minorities can easily motivate others to attempt the same.
I think minorities still have a very valid argument for being upset over racial/ethnic/gender inequity they face within a society that's nowhere near the racial parity asserted by talking heads.
The hope is that in time, the need for cultural sensitivity training won't even be necessary, because society as a whole will be litmus paper and watchkeepers in the cause to silence racists/bigots for good so that we can all move forward as one society, one humanity.
We certainly don't want racism going unpunished but we need to define what is racism and what is not. We need to crack down on obvious racism but at the same time need to be optimistic that not everything negative which transpires between people of different races must be racism.
We need to see that racism can be seen as something as simple as not having a diversity of races in your close friends, not saying hello to a member of a different race on the street, being fearful when a gang of youth approach you in the night, to calling someone a name when that one specific person made you upset, to disapproving of a marriage because of race, to bias when provided with two equal job applicants, to approving of a race or faith focused school, to painting all members of a certain race with the same brush, to seeking conflict with member of another race, and the list goes on.
There's already 36 alternative schools in the TDSB system, what's one more going to do? No matter what becomes of the black-focused program, I'm at least glad there's a public outcry to assist these marginalized and underpriviledged students on the verge of dropping out. Increasing the number of black students that successfully graduate, earn a Bachelor's/Master's and join the workforce; the better it is for society as a whole. Doing next to nothing to help, only stagnates their progress and potential.
I suppose double minorities have it the worst off though, as these individuals can never be fully accepted by any social norm groups within society: white or black [or another ethnicity], gay or straight.
Increasing the number of black students that successfully graduate, earn a Bachelor's/Master's and join the workforce; the better it is for society as a whole. Doing next to nothing to help, only stagnates their progress and potential.
Perhaps, but what you are describing above are normal human responses in certain circumstances, which may be unfair or unpleasant or unreasonable, but they are natural and will occur from time to time... Is a white person walking alone at night a racist if he changes his direction to avoid a group of black males hanging out in gangsta clothes? Is a white female being sexist if she prefers to wait for10 the next elevator rather than get on alone with a white male stranger? The very nature of human intuition is that it is informed by our unconsious processing of information which unfortunatly - or perhaps luckily - is extremely discriminating. Our intuition racially profiles all the time, and profiles according to gender or ethnicity or a whole host of other criteria. Again, it's all about context and perspective.
When does a person become non-innocent? When a person is singled out because he or she is causing you trouble or insulting you does the insult you hurl back at him or her matter that much because at that point you aren't singling him or her out because of race... you are singling him or her out as the person who is causing you trouble or is insulting you. Racism isn't about how you treat a specific individual in response to something they personally did, it is how you treat a person who you are singling out simply due to race.
Lets say that certain words are as harmful as bullets (an exaggeration of course) and add in a fictional condition that certain bullets can only harm certain races. If I shoot a specific person because they are shooting at me, does the fact I chose the bullet which would cause harm change the nature of why I am shooting back?
I'm curious what you mean by cheating the system.
Do you think minority groups would be happy with white people creating a white school that focuses on white accomplishments? I completely agree with "doing unto others as you'd want done unto you". I see getting rid of race and faith based schools as key to that. As far as the 36 alternative schools I would certainly want to get rid of those that have nothing to do with academics. Having special schools for arts, for the gifted, and for the mentally handicapped has nothing to do with race obviously and provides a benefit to people without consideration of race or religion. If it is possible to fit those academic focused alternative programs in the existing regular schools that would be even better. I went to a high school which had 3000 students, which was highly multicultural, had ESL, had French Immersion, had a dance program, had a TV program, had tech and automotive, and a wide range of both advanced and general level classes. I see that high school as an example of what is possible in Canada when people from all walks of life, with varying skillsets and interests, and from various economic realities get together under one roof. That is the Canada I want my children to inherit. I don't believe that we can get rid of racism until we see race as simply a description... like blue eyes or long hair. You certainly wouldn't have a blue eyed school and a long hair history class.
There are problems to be dealt with but the way to approach solving them is not to start off by embracing an idea that is divisive and which leaves people who don't fit some predefined mould out in the cold. We should be hiring counsellors to work with problem youth, figuring out the reasons individuals make the independent choices they make. If an elective history or art course can be seen to add value to the curriculum then by all means add it to our existing schools as an African course rather than a "black" course because "black" is divisive and presumes black or white and doesn't allow for shades of grey. The history of Pacific WWII battles aren't taught as a "whites versus orientals" history class... it is taught as a history of people and governments. In all the history courses I ever took I never saw any focus on skin colour and eye shape. We shouldn't be starting that now.
Isn't there a contradiction here? Racism is more problematic in Canada than in the USA because it is 'invisible'? Yet discrimination against invisible minorities is less problematic than discrimination against visible minorities because it is...'invisible'?
Well unless you're talking about Adolph Hitler here it is unbelievably reactionary to confer such power to an individual who uses the wrong word in a fight. I've said it before that 'witch hunts' are never very effective; red curtains in your window do not make you a communist...
I agree that everyone, whether they perceive themselves to be part of the so-called majority or the so-called minority, should be concerned about equality and human rights - to protect the rights of the minority is to protect the rights of the majority! - but these are issues for law and the courts, and the responsibility of the 'talking heads'.
Concepts of racial/ethnic/gender equity in society, however, are so much more nebulous and problematic because they are about context and personal perspective which as we know is inherently distorted, and which is why crusades in these areas, no matter how well-intentioned, end up causing more harm and division than good. Enviro's examples show that not every black person being fired is being discriminated against and not every white person in this multicultural society is going to be welcomed with open arms by everyone in every situation. But once again our perspectives can be misleading, in that the white person being attacked by a minority group may be more likely to view it as an issue of assault than racism, and a black person being fired by a white boss may be more inclined to view it as an issue of racism than a labour issue.
Yet you want to segregate schools? The failure of Canada's multicultural experiment was that it encouraged the segregation of multicultural communities and neglected to provide any tools for assimilation. Segregating schools will only add to this, and thereby add to issues of cultural or racial insensitivity. This is not a white 'majority' vs any-other-colour 'minority' issue, because any white person in a non-white community is also a minority. Again, it is about context and perspective.
I agree, although I don't feel we need to 'crack down' on racism which would start to feel like a witch hunt. The rights and laws are in place if somebody truly feels like they have been the victim of discrimination, and when I last checked using the wrong language, even the 'n' word, or having negative thoughts, opinions or stereotypes about people are not crimes against humanity. If we start prosecuting and destroying people because of these things then we become a police state. Is that what we want?
Perhaps, but what you are describing above are normal human responses in certain circumstances, which may be unfair or unpleasant or unreasonable, but they are natural and will occur from time to time... Is a white person walking alone at night a racist if he changes his direction to avoid a group of black males hanging out in gangsta clothes? Is a white female being sexist if she prefers to wait for10 the next elevator rather than get on alone with a white male stranger? The very nature of human intuition is that it is informed by our unconsious processing of information which unfortunatly - or perhaps luckily - is extremely discriminating. Our intuition racially profiles all the time, and profiles according to gender or ethnicity or a whole host of other criteria. Again, it's all about context and perspective.
Segregating black people and giving them a differnt standard and a marginal scholastic experience will not help their situation longterm. Eventually they will have to inegrate and interact with the bigger, wider world. I am not arguing that the school system may be failing some kids in the black community, but if that's the case then fix the system rather than resorting to a questionable solution. We also have to be honest that it is not just the school system failing kids but that there are social problems within the black community that must be addressed. Sweeping them under the carpet and looking for scapegoats without will not help those kids in life.
I think we should help everyone, regardless of race, gender, sexuality....why don't you agree?
Words are worst than bullets. You shoot a man, if he lives, he can still go on about his life. A constant barage of negativity, a cloud of suspicion and malcontent isn't healthy for anyone. Words can never hurt you is BS, whoever made that up was never condescended or made to feel inferior their whole lives.
That's dependent on both parties though. Two wrongs don't make a right. If you have a friend who you usually get along with well but one day he messes up and says something inappropiate, how'd you respond?
Would you lash out the most vulgar obscenity you can think of to hurt the person's feelings? Or do you lead by example and not lower yourself to that level of behaviour?
One's temperment and rationality differs from person to person, so too does their likelihood to spread racist propaganda, even if they're unaware they're doing it.
Words are worst than bullets.
Two-faced, duplicitous people who are even worse than racists that utter slurs to your face. When people infiltrate one's personal boundaries, then screw you over, that is the worst feeling ever.
I really don't think the segregation in this case was to promote racism. The TDSB itself released to the public statistics showing Afro-Canadian students were fairing the worst off of all ethnic groups within the system.
If the system itself decided to segregate the student body group by group, ethnic by ethnic to see which group preformed the worst, does that tell you that its a systematic agenda not by individuals, that seeks to instigate and prolong the class/ethnic divisions within society? We as individuals can only take what's mediated at us as fact, and evaluate and base our opinions around that.
The cirricula was designed in a time when the majority population was white. While its made accomodations to appease recent immigrant populations, overall its understandable why some pupils can't relate to the teachings. Everything needs to taken with a grain of salt. Demanding greater diversity in a system designed for white immigrants primarily, non-whites as an afterthought, is by no means a "witch hunt".
How can there be so much concern for non-black Africans feeling left out by black=African, yet so much disregard for the alienation of minorities, ethnocentric exclusion in general?
Sure, some people have a greater likelihood to become a hot head and explode into expletives or violence and to retaliate rather than to seek to diffuse the situation. An expletive is not racist propaganda. Propaganda has content and substance. Propaganda would convince people to believe something about people based on race. If someone was to say black people are the cause of certain problems or that white people are the cause of certain problems that is racial propaganda. It seeks to have an entire race seen in a negative light when people are individuals and your skin colour or race or cultural history is not a burden than people who are innocent should be burdened with.
Nonsense. If he had shot the lady that would have been better? Maybe a campaign to shoot people rather than call them names makes sense to deal with this problem... or at least improve the situation? You missed the point of the whole statement.
I understand that it is better to know where people stand. I'm not sure I get what you are saying in your second point as that sounds like you are discussing rape which isn't on topic.
That is the danger of statistics. Their very nature, when collected along racial lines, is that they are divisive. They are summarizations and not facts. Statistics don't tell you why things are the way they are and they don't tell you the solution. A professor at UWO, Philippe Rushton, collected statistics by race on IQ, brain size, and penis size. What good does it do for society to have statistics like these which fuel stereotypes and deny individuality? We shouldn't act on racially based statistics.
I never took any "white" courses. Can you explain to me how the curriculum is white? How is this curriculum white? Which of these courses is not relevant to living in the English and French speaking country of Canada?
It has nothing to do with being left out... it has to do with being defined by skin colour. When you learn WWII history you don't hear how the Orientals sneakily bombed the Whites in Pearl Harbour and how the Whites nuked the Orientals. Whites weren't at war with Orientals, Americans were at war with the Japanese. Focusing on race is perpetuating a false reality and fuelling racism. There shouldn't be "Black History". There might be "African American History" or "Nigerian History" or "Rwandan History" or "African History". "Black History", "White History", and "Oriental History" aren't histories... they are racial divisions. The history of Ethiopia is not the history of African Americans.
If you believe that words are worse than bullets, that may signal a problem with you. I see no parallel between the two experiences. If the words don't fit, why pay them any heed? If they are irrational and without basis, then they are just that and no more. A physical attack and physical damage is quite different. For example, if EnviroTo would have had his skull caved in by someone wielding a baseball bat, he would likely not have woken up the next day feeling dandy and just brushing off the experience. Had someone let go with a long string of negative words, slurs and descriptives, he may have concluded that this was the specific view of a small group of people, nothing more, and that's it. He may not have liked the words, and have been angered by the words, but the words would never have killed him like a bat to the head or a bullet to the chest.
I don't understand the situation you are in if you are constantly exposed to a barrage of negativity and a cloud of suspicion and malcontent all the time. Honestly, does that actually describe your experience and life? If not, it sounds (and maybe I am wrong) that you assume everyone thinks the worst of you. If so, you have to ask the question if it is you who is actually generating this interpretation and experience.
Yes, words can hurt. But there is a point when one wakes up to the fact that they are, in the end, just words, and the words are the opinions of others, and that it is you who chooses to value those words or not. That is quite a difference from a bullet tearing flesh, muscle, artery and bone.
TThe TDSB itself released to the public statistics showing Afro-Canadian students were fairing the worst off of all ethnic groups within the system.
People who didn't ask to be born into a minority ethnicity/racial group shouldn't be slandered for who they biologically are. Nigger is derivative of Negro which comes from Negroid, the anthropological definition of the black race.
I do agree, but the thread subject revolves around black social issues.
People who didn't ask to be born into a minority ethnicity/racial group shouldn't be slandered for who they biologically are. Nigger is derivative of Negro which comes from Negroid, the anthropological definition of the black race.