Quebec-Windsor Corridor

[turini2]

That is a bit of a strawman argument. Just because you provide an example of one country outside of North America that has long, electric freight trains, that doesn't mean that "most of the world" doesn't focus on passenger trains.

I could provide many more examples of long, electrified freight trains - I just chose India as an example.
I don't disagree that countries focus on passenger trains - but freight is not an afterthought though! As another example, China (known for its high quality high speed rail) is #1 for tonne-kilometre of freight and #5 in tonne-kilometres per capita

(Somewhat interestingly, Russia is #1 in tonne-kilometres per capita - big country!)

I'm curious, is that "nearly 2,000km of newly built electrified railway" one continuous line, or a network of lines?

A network of lines, they've got something like 5,000km or so under construction or planning. The TLDR is that they decided building a brand new line from zero was easier than upgrading existing lines.

The freight railways could possibly choose to use 25 kVAC in some sections to allow them to import European locomotives there (assuming they meet North American Standards) and then switch to 50 kVAC locomotives where those are more useful, but I somehow think they would want to standardize on a single voltage.

Given the cost of developing bespoke 50kV locomotives (and the time cost of swapping them out) - you are correct that standardisation is likely.

I will conclude by reiterating that the freight railways have shown no interest in installing catenary anywhere on their networks (or even permitting it), so the whole discussion is likely moot.

Yes, this is sad - and would need government intervention to change. Instead the freight railways are pushing bullshit like hydrogen or weaselling out of even the most modest green commitments.

the obstacle is not technical. as shown above for india its all about whether CN/CP wants in invest on electric infrastructure or stick with the good ol' diesel. right now its the latter because its more short term financially convenient for them.

Completely agree - if we want a decarbonised railway network, electrification is the solution.

 

[turini2]

Also, if people are legitimately interested in this topic - I can recommend this (free!) book
Overhead Line Electrification for Railways - An approachable and comprehensive study of OLE for beginners and trainees

(It is written from a UK perspective, but it's interesting nevertheless!)

 

[turini2]

For example, in BC the combination of a mountainous terrain, combined with frequent, heavy resource loads (which, AFAIK, are typically heaver than containers), the higher power could be helpful. Also, in Northern Ontario, there are large sections without a well developed electrical grid, so having a higher voltage, would lower the current, meaning the distance between grid feeds could be longer.

Oh and if people haven't come across Open Infrastructure Map before - this is a super nerdy thing to nose into.

It certainly helped me to visualise the connections between Quebec's hydro plants and the population centres of Canada!

 

[turini2]

One final message I promise - this is a little outlandish, but the most powerful electric locomotive in the world is used in China to haul 10,000 tonne coal trains. I remember I laughed when I saw this for the first time - it looks remarkably silly.

28.8 MW 24-axle six-section locomotive (106m in length) develops starting tractive effort of 2,280 kN and continuous tractive effort of 1,596 kN reaching 120 km/h

 

[smallspy]

I will conclude by reiterating that the freight railways have shown no interest in installing catenary anywhere on their networks (or even permitting it), so the whole discussion is likely moot.

This is not completely true. During the various fuel crises of the 1970s, most of the North American freight railroads very seriously looked into electrification, to the point where some (including CP) installed catenary for testing on parts of their network, and EMD built two demonstrator locomotives on spec.

It does require a bit of a perfect storm in order to get back to the point at which it first happened, but it seems as if we're not far off of it now.

Dan

 

[roger1818]

Completely agree - if we want a decarbonised railway network, electrification is the solution.

It comes to value for money. Quoting the Railway Association of Canada:

Each year, Canada’s railways move tens of millions of passengers and 70 per cent of all intercity freight, while producing just 1.0 per cent of Canada’s greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions. And only 3.6 per cent of the country’s transportation sector GHG emissions.

There are much bigger fish to fry than spending billions (if not trillions) of dollars for a maximum of a 1% reduction in GHG emissions. The railways will be electrified when the economics make sense.

 

[crs1026]

The railways will be electrified when the economics make sense.

The railways are quite likely to drag their feet on electrification for a long time to come, in hopes of a self-contained solution (such as battery or hydrogen) that will be cheaper and simpler than stringing and maintaining all that OCS.

Quite apart from carbon, the amount of energy that is lost in heat from the use of internal combustion engines (which are inherently energy-wasteful, in terms of amount of fuel delivered as traction power vs lost through radiator cooling and just plain direct loss to atmosphere) and heat-generating braking (most of which can be captured through regeneration ie dynamic brakes) is huge - and at some point that wasted expense becomes an economic lever. It's all a matter of when that lever really becomes worth pursuing. Carbon taxation will help the case, but if we are successful in moving off petroleum generally, I don't see diesel oil prices rising enough to make this material - as supply will exceed demand eventually.

It seems that no locomotive builder or energy company is offering to deliver electrified tractive effort at the rail - nothing prevents a generator or locomotive builder from pitching a deal where they build and maintain the wires, and the locomotives, and deliver horsepower hours to the railway themselves. The vendor assumes the cost of generation, the cost of the investment in elecctric locomotives and wires (or otherwise), recoups the regenerated energy, and simply bills the railway at a price that is less than what the railways pay for diesel fuel and maintenance today. That business case is not much more elaborate than how locomotive builders and leasors deliver diesel power to the railways today..... but the fact that no one is jumping at this as a business opportunity says to me the break-even point has not been reached.

- Paul

 

[cplchanb]

It comes to value for money. Quoting the Railway Association of Canada:



There are much bigger fish to fry than spending billions (if not trillions) of dollars for a maximum of a 1% reduction in GHG emissions. The railways will be electrified when the economics make sense.

CN and CP will not want to touch the status quo as their RoI wont be realized for a generation and they want their coffers now.
that is why they are trying the stopgap measures such as their battery and hydrogen locos. however that is all lipstick on a pig as neither have the range or the infrastructure to offset diesel.

 

[roger1818]

CN and CP will not want to touch the status quo as their RoI wont be realized for a generation and they want their coffers now.

You are correct, and the ROI just isn't there at the moment. That isn't to say that it will never be there, but my crystal ball on future diesel prices (one of the key factors in the economics) is rather murky.

that is why they are trying the stopgap measures such as their battery and hydrogen locos. however that is all lipstick on a pig as neither have the range or the infrastructure to offset diesel.

While there could (in theory) be a future where hydrogen locos make sense, today the economics don't work, as hydrogen is currently more expensive than diesel to deliver the same amount of power. Once again, my crystal ball is murky, but, IMHO, attempts to build hydrogen locomotives is green washing.

As for batteries, I don't see them replacing diesel for freight any time soon (if ever), but they may serve a valuable role in hybrid diesel-battery consists to reduce fuel consumption with both regenerative breaking and a reduction in the amount of time spent idling.

 

[reaperexpress]

I think for the sake of the QC-W corridor, the best we should do in the immediate future is to make sure that any work in areas likely to be retained in an HFR/HSR alignment is future-proofed for electrification (assuming standard 25kV 60Hz AC overhead), similarly to what Metrolinx already does.

Even HFR itself has a dubious proposition for electrification in its initial phase if it only electrifies one intercity train per hour at a cost of a billion dollars. Diesel engines at a constant speed are fairly efficient, it's really the stop-and-go services like the O-Train, GO Train and Exo which waste significant amounts of energy. I've still yet to hear any plans to electrify the O-Train Trillium Line or Airport Line, which is wild.

 

[Wm Perkins Bull]

Over time increased diesel prices will drive a decent amount of freight off trucking and on to trains. In turn, the increased fuel costs for CN and CPKC will encourage them to start electrifying along their busiest routes, especially if the federal government offers low cost loans for that purpose

 

[cplchanb]

Over time increased diesel prices will drive a decent amount of freight off trucking and on to trains. In turn, the increased fuel costs for CN and CPKC will encourage them to start electrifying along their busiest routes, especially if the federal government offers low cost loans for that purpose

Most of us would be dead by then. Not joking

 

[kEiThZ]

Most of us would be dead by then. Not joking

Yeah. The average tractor trailer does something like 7.5 mpg while towing 40 000 lbs. At today's retail diesel prices that's about 50¢/km to move 40 000 lbs. Or about 0.00126¢/km per pound. Basically, it costs less than 4¢ in fuel to get a pound of strawberries from California to Toronto. When shipping is that cheap, what's the incentive to move to electrified rail? Not to mention that things like electric and hybrid trucks are actually making shipping cheaper.

 

[dowlingm]

(Also this image is great at scaring US foamers who claim double stack freight isn't possible under wires)

The Dedicated Freight Corridor standard in India has 7.1m clearance (23ft 3.5in) and 7.5m pantograph height which allows for doublestack on flat cars rather than well cars. Anything is doable if you invest in the tech (as India have) but also have no issue with expanding tunnels, or sawing open overbridges and reprofiling them higher, or whatever else needs to be done. In India this is seen as a national transportation imperative. In America, the federal imperative appears to be whatever the Class I's K Street lobbyists tell them it is in the interest of whatever fund managers own large blocks of shares.

 

[roger1818]

I’m currently on train 35 (one of the Venture trainsets) and we came to a complete stop to “protect the crossing” at Dunning Rd (between Castleman and Ottawa). My first thought was that the gates weren’t working but when we did cross it, they were down with the lights flashing. I did notice a Siemens work crew at the crossing though. Does anyone have any idea what this is about?