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Quality of Life Crimes/Public Behaviour

A

AlchemisTO

Guest
The last two nights in Toronto, whether I was on the TTC or just walking home from a pub, have been unpleasant, uncomfortable and, even though the stats prove otherwise, I felt at all times like I'd be safer in a large American city.

Last night, some drunken white undergrads were yelling in the subway car, pushing each other into the walls, hanging from the bars and trying to wrestle each other while spilling food all over the seats. After enduring this for ten stops, I had a twitching desire to punch the ringleader in his face but, of course, that would mean that the rest of them would gang up on me. Ten against one; whou would even speak up and object? The rest of the subway car patrons gave a resigned shrug and tried to pretend that nothing was going on. On the subway ride today, two girls on the platform at Castle Frank were shining lasers into people's eyes and flipping them the bird, then later on College, more drunken frat boy types were yelling expletives at the top of their lungs and kicking in signs. Finally, the Bloor night bus tonight had to stop when a homeless woman came on board and demanded money from people. After she had squeezed her way onto the bus and we were stopped for ten minutes, even the normally meek Toronto crowd had enough and told her to **** off, with one guy grabbing her by the sleeve and tossing her onto the sidewalk. The guy sitting next to me, a TTC employee, told me that drivers were helpless to do anything and the protocol is for the drivers to sit and wait there until the police or special constables arrive.

This was perhaps a pretty instructive two nights in Toronto since I just got back from living in New York where this kind of behaviour would never occur. There are two very simple reasons for this: first of all, if you attempted to do anything like what I saw in Toronto, the ubiquitous NYPD would be on you so fast and force you down onto the ground to be humiliated in front of everyone else. Second, in US cities, there is the really latent threat that if you push people around they could very easily take a gun out of their pocket and kill you. As a result, I never felt threatened or nuisanced anywhere in New York city, regardless of what neighbourhood I found myself in or what time of night it was. In Toronto, however, I am annoyed at least once a month by bad public conduct such that even though I had more to fear in New York, I feel less safe and more irritated in Toronto. What I think I was most scared of is that for an instant, in that subway car when those kids were behaving like assholes, I was really considering physically harming them very seriously. In other words, the situation I found myself in - even though it was not as severe as a mugging or attempted assault - nearly drove me to new lows of depravity; an almost animal-like level of violence.

What to do?

I'm not at all advocating that we carry loaded handguns in our jackets to threaten stupid kids who run amok on our subway with death. What I am advocating, however, is that our police force start to tackle crimes at a root level, and that we step up our police presence to make a statement that this kind of crap should not be tolerated. You start by adding CCTVs and then doling out harsh penalties for 'nuisance crimes': vandalism, turnstile jumping, destruction of public property, making a racket, etc. Gradually, the public becomes aware that this is not tolerated and it also trickles down to reduce more severe crimes.

I'm a libertarian, so I feel very strongly about individual freedoms, but I also feel that other people being inconsiderate to that degree takes away from my natural right as a human being to seek peace and not be harmed. I'm very torn on this because I know that if you give the police an inch, they'll use it as a precendent and take a mile. Soon the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms - a powerful and very civilized guidebook on how to run a society - will be simply worth the paper its printed on. What should we do?
 
Am rushing off to work, but hooboy, am I going to put my two cents in on this one...
 
I was really considering physically harming them very seriously.

THis makes it sound like you have very serious anger managment issues. It frightens me that there are people riding around on the subway seeking out excuses to thrash someone.
 
The only actual act of violence he witnessed was the attack on that poor homeless woman on the bus.
 
THis makes it sound like you have very serious anger managment issues. It frightens me that there are people riding around on the subway seeking out excuses to thrash someone.

For God's sake fill in that massive chip on your shoulder once and for all.

And you wonder why people consider dealing out thrashings in the first place.
 
andrea,

I said that I was scared that I wanted to cast off the veneer of civilization and actually lash out at someone. This almost never happens, which is why I think I was more frightened of what I was capable of myself, than what those people were doing. I never actually hurt anyone. You, of course, were not on the subway, nor in any of those other situations, so please don't selectively read the post and make damning and excessively moralizing generalizations.
 
While I sympathisize with you alchemist, I have to ask "what else is new?"

While in Montreal, I saw this kind of behaviour all the time. It is primarily the activity of groups of young men on alcohol. The ability to distinguish between what is fun for them and what has become obnoxious to others melted away sometime earlier in their evening out.

While living in Ottawa right near one major university, the same experience could be had. One night I walked behind six young drunk guys who kicked over every recycling box they encountered, leaving the street in a complete mess. The newspaper boxes in front of my apartment were the target of constant attack.

Kingston was the same thing.

Generally speaking, reasoning does not work particularly well on these groups. Growing up does. In ten years some of the people you experienced will be having your experience while observing the next generation of offensive, annoying idiots doing pretty much the same thing.
 
I can't speak to your incidents Alchemist, but I will say I'm for harsher punishments for quality of life/bad public behaviour crimes.

In specific to the TTC: it is not a wrestling ring, Speakers Corner, nor is it a place for assholes, solicitators or beggers.

I don't accept being drunk as an excuse. One chooses to get drunk, one knows how they get when they're drunk, and one decides to kick caution to the wind and let the rest of society enjoy their antics. If you're a bad drunk... I dunno... how about not getting drunk. There's personal responsibility in each drink one puts back.

Yes, I would like to see public humiliation, fines, public service, and maybe even jail time for those who commit such crimes. I'm all for having police/TTC constables in larger numbers at times/places where this type of behaviour most often occurs.


EDIT: Sorry Alchemist, but I can't agree with your prognosis that this is a Toronto problem. I'm sure it happens everywhere, New York included.
 
I've seen plenty of antisocial behaviour on New York, London and Montreal subways... it sure ain't a Toronto thing. But I sympathise with your having the urge to sock it to 'em... I get the urge all the time. But if you can control your urge to kick their asses, you don't have an anger management problem. Having an anger management problem is when you have difficulty managing your anger.
 
First of all, that "poor homeless" woman got what was coming to her. There's no excuse for harassing people on a transit vehicle, and if word got out to others like her that that's what will happen when you panhandle on public transit, then we wouldn't see that happen anymore. That's actually the one positive that came out of Alchemis' story. I'm glad to hear that people got fed up and tossed her out on her ear.

As for the issue at hand, I dunno, I can say that Alchemis can chalk it up to just having a bad night. But on the other, there are larger issues at play. For one thing, his relating of the NYPD just confirms in my mind the notion that the TTC Special Constables and Toronto Police should, in fact, merge. This is exactly what happened in New York, and it should happen here. And CCTV will be on all trains by '08 or '09, so maybe that problem will dissipate in time. In the meantime, I would like to see the TTC adopt an MTA-style public relations campaign (see it, report it). You can call it snitching or being hard-assed or whatever, but I think there's something to be said if the TTC and its police gain a rep as being dudes you don't want to mess with.

I'm willing to put up with policing that, while not overzealous, is certainly aggressive while staying within the bounds of the law. As they say, perception is reality. If the perception in NYC is that you just don't mess with the NYPD on the subways, then that will contribute to a sense of public order in the absence of a grassroots adherence to civil social norms, which take a lot of work to nurture. And it has, as I've felt the same way Alchemis does while in I'm in NY. But it took them a long time, and a seachange in attitude. Remember, when graffiti first started appearing on trains in '70 or '71, many people dismissed it (if not celebrated it), and looked the other way. Bernie Goetz was the logical endpoint from the first tags. If it becomes a given in Toronto that you can beg on trains, kick in signs and intimidate passengers, no one should be surprised when, say, five years from now, someone snaps and blows away four punks on the Bloor line who wouldn't shut up. So when I hear about things like this, I go fascist. Why shouldn't I? When you let things slide, when you start making excuses, when you look the other way, then you have no other choice than to go further in the other direction than you would like in order to restore a semblance of stability and order. That's why the NYPD is so aggressive; things went too far the other way for too long, and can go back at any other time if the authorities let up. So those of you who have a problem with that kind of policing, all I can say is you only have yourself to blame when you prattle on about the rights of people to act like jerks. Because indulge them too much, and soon enough you're the one who's going to wish there was a cop onboard every subway car. And even if you don't, more people than you will.

The problem of creating a culture where you report such behaviour, without fear of the consequences, that will take work. It's constant vigilance as people are often too lazy or too selfish to think beyond themselves. And so then you have to kick ass. When my dad started driving not only was he given tacit permission to just drive by groups of drunks waiting for the Bloor night bus, but it was looked the other way if a driver beat up a drunk idiot and tossed him out the door. I even heard of some drivers having crowbars under their seats. That just can't happen now, and so unless some severe, draconian punishments are brought in to deter disorderly behaviour, changes won't happen unless more people adopt a Todd Beamer Let's-Roll mentality. And if you're asking me do I view annoying homeless people and drunk frat assholes as equivalent to Al Qaeda, my answer is yes, to a degree. I am a complete fascist when it comes to disorderly behaviour because when you allow what seem like small things to happen, larger, worse ones eventually will.

There was a thread here awhile back about the fad of spontaneous parties happening on trains. I was lambasted for being a killjoy because I felt then, and always will, that public domains like transit should not be considered potential party spaces or canvasses or whatever activists like to think they are. They should be a place where self-restraint and consideration for others predominate, and not an arena for self-indulgence. It wouldn't surprise me if me if those idiots went to a few of those parties, and so why would they think they should behave themselves on the train when the subways are just another place to party? Couple that with ruinous late-Boomer I'm-your-friend-not-your-parent parenting, and it's no surprise to see behaviour like this.

Incidentally, I wish I could say that kind of behaviour is rare among university students these days, but it's not. In between telling students to shut up in the library, threating bannings, picking up their garbage or calling in maintenance to repair vandailzed carrels, I'm noticing a complete and utter breakdown among many in that age group in terms of decency and appropriate behaviour.

The other thing I can't help but think of is that I was waiting for a moment where Alchemis said, you know, those broken-window-theory zero-tolerance fuddy duddies like Giuliani and Fantino that we enlightened urban types make fun of, dammit, they have a point. And they do. You can have an army of criminology professors tell you otherwise, but the average person, in a pinch, will think, why the hell can't these idiots sit down, shut up, behave themselves, and let me get home in peace. And why aren't there more cops to keep a lid on this? And they'd be right.

There was discussion over in cyburbia not long ago outlining the reasons for urban flight in the 60s. And one person said that, leaving aside race, freeways, loss of manufacturing etc, one big reason was the collapse of Edwardian values in terms of public behaviour, and the self-conscious rejection and breakdown of things like streetcleaning and vagrancy laws that facilitated a common, civic and orderly public realm. This was replaced by self-indulgent and disruptive behaviours that arose from an ethos not dissimilar to one that leads to the kinds of behaviour Alchemis witnessed. I have to admit, I strongly agree with that. So yes, one bad night isn't really indicative of much, but it's one of those things you have to keep an eye on. Since Alchemis is a self-described libertarian, I guess paraphrasing Barry Goldwater isn't inappropriate when I say that extremism in the name of quiet subway rides home is no vice.
 
Alch:

I can only sympathize - re: the subway situation, there is the emergency "strip" that one can press. I did that once with two particularly unruly girls (and was the verge to do it last week with a bunch of boys who think messing with the subway doors was "fun") - they made a dash out the station in no time.

AoD
 
First of all, I definitely am happy to live in a society where people do not restrain their behaviour out of fear of strangers shooting them. I'd much rather have Britain's culture of endless frat boy-style fighting and an infinitesimally low murder rate over American-style quietly living in fear.

Irritating as it might be, those "frat boys" on the train didn't harm you or anyone else, and they don't sound like they did too much damage to the train.

I would say that the biggest problem with policing in the City of Toronto (and other communities) is a total unwillingness to enforce the law in "minor" offences. Recently, my friend's cell phone was stolen and it took her about 12 hours to realize that it was gone. In that time, the thief used it pretty much non-stop to call a big long string of numbers in Jamaica. She was forced to pay half of a bill which mounted into the hundreds of dollars. The police took a statement, but wouldn't even do so much as call some of the numbers the thief was calling to scare them a little. There are countless other similar cases which I have experienced (including my own phone theft) where the police have taken pretty much no action beyond taking a statement to attempt to apprehend the criminals. I think this is very negative for several reasons. First of all, it breeds a lack of fear in thieves and other petty criminals. Bike thieves are the most obvious example. They operate with impunity since the police make little or no attempt to apprehend them even if there are dozens of witnesses. This sense of impunity it even more serious when you consider that the type of person who would steal, knowing he wouldn't get caught, would likely be willing to "graduate" to more severe crimes. Another major reason why this lack of enforcement is a problem is the damage it causes to the relationship between citizens and the police. The vast majority of us will only have dealings with the force in terms of traffic enforcement and reporting minor crimes. Obviously the former doesn't instill a love of the police service, so the latter is the best opportunity to build its public image. Unfortunately, their lack of interest in such crimes only serves to damage that image.

CCTV seems like a panacea for a lot of these problems, but I don't believe that it is. First of all, the image quality is often too poor to be useful. Moreover, it is rarely useful to review a tape hours after the incident has occured. An anecdotal example is my father's experience having his laptop stolen at a train station in Brussels. The whole place is packed full of cameras, but when we went to the police to report the crime, they told us that we were the fourth person to report such a theft that day. When I asked if they had ever apprehended anyone thanks to the cameras, they said no. After standing for five minutes where the theft occurred, I easily picked out who was doing it: a man was walking into the station, following this woman and staring intensely at her backpack. If the police just had one undercover agent standing in the hall, watching suspicious people like that, they would be very likely to catch them in the act.
 
Alvin,

yeah, I thought about using the strip but then I thought about trying to explain to the special constable that, although there was no damage to either my property or the subway property I was very irritated and they made my ride unpleasant and spoiled my mood. How can I convey something at once pernicious but also so unquantifiable?

unimaginative,

They were frat boys. I've noticed that most of the rowdies are usually drunk, white, middle class male students who feel comfortable in their element. If women were among their group, or if they found themselves in a neighbourhood known for violence, they'd probably sober up and act responsibly fairly quickly. The object of the game is not to strike fear in everyone but to make that 0.01% of the population that stoops to deplorable behaviour in public places to realize that that kind of BS won't be tolerated. That's why I didn't advocate handguns but said that tough policing of 'broken window' crimes and greater police vigilance on public transit should be the norm.


Canuck, Ganja,

It's definitely worse here than in New York for the very reasons I mentioned and fiendish reiterated. Whether it's effective policing, or New Yorkers living in fear of each other is open for debate, but I never found myself in the sort of element I found myself in three times in Toronto this weekend in New York once, not even on late night subway lines or walking through some of the seedier parts of the city. NY is effectively a police state and the NYPD are not afraid to charge even the most minor misdemeanors to send a loud and clear message home that even 'broken window' petty crime will not be tolerated. A lot of the infrastructure in the city is also designed to resist vandalism and simple destruction of property whether it's making turnstiles difficult for jumpers to get a proper footing, or ringing car impound lot fences with razor wire. It's unsightly, and maybe a little overkill to the uninitiated, but it is effective.
 
I said that I was scared that I wanted to cast off the veneer of civilization and actually lash out at someone. This almost never happens,

So sometimes you do beat up people who are doing nothing wrong?
 

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