Proposed renaming of Dundas Street

[zang]

Where does it end? George Washington owned slaves. I suppose the US should be renaming its capital and one of its states?

We can erase all mention of problematic people (most historical figures are problematic), or we can reflect on it.

York became Toronto (again) simply because the residents preferred it. Renaming something because the honouree turned out to be an a-hole seems a much better reason, donchathink?

On the flip side, why is it so important to defend the honour of someone who turns out to be dishonourable?

 

[kamira51]

York became Toronto (again) simply because the residents preferred it. Renaming something because the honouree turned out to be an a-hole seems a much better reason, donchathink?

On the flip side, why is it so important to defend the honour of someone who turns out to be dishonourable?

I'm defending Dundas because I look at the good things he's done and the bad things, people seem to tunnel vision on the bad things only, and act like changing the name will make everyone hold hands and jump around all happy.

Same can be said about John A. He was a drunk moron, but he founded our nation, so why are we trying to whipe him from our history books.

 

[kamira51]

Where does it end? George Washington owned slaves. I suppose the US should be renaming its capital and one of its states?

We can erase all mention of problematic people (most historical figures are problematic), or we can reflect on it.

Yeah that's basically every historical figure known to man.

 

[afransen]

York became Toronto (again) simply because the residents preferred it. Renaming something because the honouree turned out to be an a-hole seems a much better reason, donchathink?

On the flip side, why is it so important to defend the honour of someone who turns out to be dishonourable?

I'm not defending his honour, I am questioning the erasure of the city's history. We start here, but Dundas is far from the only problematic person after whom things are named in this city. Pearson expressed refused aid from American troops because they were black. Martin Luther King Jr was a philanderer.

 

[zang]

I'm not defending his honour, I am questioning the erasure of the city's history.

it’s *not* erasure of history. Do you think removing his name from the street makes his name magically disappear from the library?

Taking a name off a street is not the same as “erasing” history, ffs.

If this is truly about “history”, how about we change the names back to what they were before they were consolidated under Dundas?

 

[jje1000]

Separately......a report to Executive also recommends renaming Dundas street, and othewise expunging the name Dundas, everywhere..........

SMH.

Upwards of 6M ;

enough to house 24 people or families permanently.

enough to put 60 people from low-income minority households through advanced post-secondary degrees with no tuition, and no debt.

****

This is just Dundas..........

I could care less about this on a certain level.

Dundas had no tangible connection to the City.

That said, I always find symbolism for its own sake, not supported by substance to be wasteful and hypocritical.

If we want to make a real difference in lives of currently disenfranchised people (a disproportionate number of whom are First Nations or Black)........there is a long list of worthwhile places to put the money before this.

Report here: https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2021/ex/bgrd/backgroundfile-168523.pdf

Interesting note here that unwinds a purportedly black-and-white thread into one into one of more nuanced shades of grey, contextualized against the era:

1) Dundas was instrumental in getting slavery ruled unlawful in Scotland. When he was advocate general (Scottish AG), he stood as counsel for an escaped slave and successfully argued that all slave contracts were void in Scottish law and that slavery could not be enforced in Scotland. This was a massive breakthrough for abolitionism in the British Empire.

2) Dundas voted yes to the immediate end of the slave trade.

3) Dundas's "compromise" on "slowly" ending the slave trade only came after votes to immediately end slavery ended in overwhelming defeat in the Commons. In the end, even his own compromise was rejected by the Lords. Dundas's proposal would have had slavery be abolished before 1800. The slave trade was not in fact abolished until 1807. Dundas's compromise came closest of all of the 18th century attempts to end slavery, but in the end was too "radical".

Saying "Dundas prolonged slavery" is like saying "Bernie Sanders is the reason that America doesn't have universal public healthcare because he voted in favour of Barak Obama's compromise healthcare bill."

This whole thing is enormously idiotic and aggressively anti-historical.

https://www.reddit.com/r/toronto/comments/o9kxvn/_/h3cqkgm

And yes, the midwits who fall for this political parlor trick end up forgetting about the more real structural issues that may cause inequality in this city.

 

[nfitz]

Your Kathy Newman level of strawmanning merits no counterargument lol

You posted art of a statue of dictators into a rotating swastika. After calling the the tearing down of statues of those who supported slavery or ethnic cleansing as "rubbish". Not that I know who either Newman or Strawmanning are.

 

[Undead]

Not that I know who either Newman or Strawmanning are.

Yeah I can tell.

 

[nfitz]

Ignoring Dad's Army ... how do we rename? And if we rename Dundas as "Blank" does Dundas Square become "Blank Square"? Dundas West become "Blank West"? Perhaps a chance to name three things. Four is Dundas station doesn't become "Blank station" (though "Blank" Square station might work well).

 

[ARG1]

Ignoring Dad's Army ... how do we rename? And if we rename Dundas as "Blank" does Dundas Square become "Blank Square"? Dundas West become "Blank West"? Perhaps a chance to name three things. Four is Dundas station doesn't become "Blank station" (though "Blank" Square station might work well).

Doug Ford Street, Doug Ford Station, Dougie West Station

 

[picard102]

Removing a name from a street or taking down a statue is not the same as wiping someone from the history books. It’s removing an honour when it’s discovered someone’s done something dishonourable. Dundas’ name is still going to be in history books, and if it’s too difficult to understand that, I don’t know what to tell you.

Except almost no one knows who he was or that the street was named after any particular person to begin with. This is finding problems for a solution.

 

[kamira51]

Interesting note here that unwinds a purportedly black-and-white thread into one into one of more nuanced shades of grey, contextualized against the era:

https://www.reddit.com/r/toronto/comments/o9kxvn/_/h3cqkgm

And yes, the midwits who fall for this political parlor trick end up forgetting about the more real structural issues that may cause inequality in this city.

Fantastic post. It's a shame that people are too blind to see this side of Dundas.

 

[zang]

Fantastic post. It's a shame that people are too blind to see this side of Dundas.

Yeah, and funny how so many are willing to believe a reddit post, over words of an actual historian (also linked to in the same thread):

Henry Dundas, empire and genocide

Suggesting that ‘the uncrowned King of Scotland’ worked to end slavery, rather to entrench it, is irresponsible revisionism and bad history.

www.opendemocracy.net

About the author, btw:

Melanie J. Newton is an Associate Professor of History and the former Director of the Caribbean Studies Program at the University of Toronto. She is the author of a book about slave emancipation in Barbados, as well as numerous scholarly essays on gender, slavery, indigenous Caribbean history and slave emancipation.

 

[zang]

Except almost no one knows who he was or that the street was named after any particular person to begin with. This is finding problems for a solution.

That kind of demolishes the point about it being historically important then, huh?

 

[TRONto]

Doug Ford Street, Doug Ford Station, Dougie West Station

I was going to say that!