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Premier Doug Ford's Ontario

Selling it at a "loss" (ie; lower-than-market rates), is not a net loss, it just means we haven't made as much money on it as we could've.

No. That would be selling it at a discount. Selling it at a loss implicitly means that the revenue generated is less than the cost to produce it. We have been paying to have others consume our power at times. In no way can negative revenue be anything other than a net loss.
 
No. That would be selling it at a discount. Selling it at a loss implicitly means that the revenue generated is less than the cost to produce it. We have been paying to have others consume our power at times. In no way can negative revenue be anything other than a net loss.
Woah nelly! Keep the pedantry holstered. "Loss" was used in quotes, mimicking the parlance being used by the pro-PC pundits.
 
So you just defend stupidity by the liberals saying that everyone would engage in it?

No, what I'm saying is that you're using it to single out and scapegoat a specific party. I also don't consider the refurbishment and good maintenance of nuclear power plants to be "stupidity".

I think the issue is the liberals did not care what the cost of hydro was for the average person and only cared when the polls showed they will lose an election over this issue.

No, they care, but there were valid reasons for raising rates. We had growth in our power requirements, with little growth in our ability to supply such power. We had NIMBYs complaining about the locations of gas power plants and turbines who slowed down our ability to meet those requirements. Supply has been outmatched by demand. Therefore, prices go up; that's basic economic theory.

But, if you'd really like to go into it, the Harris-era deregulation of power companies in Ontario and splitting of Ontario Hydro have caused the rates to go up beyond the cost of inflation. This isn't a new phenomena. The NDP had frozen electricity prices and the PCs unfroze them in anticipation of selling off Hydro One ("Potential Buyers! We've made it so that you can raise rates and make more money!"). Ernie Eves smartened up and cancelled the Hydro One IPO under immense public backlash. But the freeze wasn't reinstated. Though now we had deregulation, competition for power supply and unfixed rates, which (as with most localized oligopolies) lead to higher rates (not lower). Skip forward ten years and we need to build new plants and our old ones need refurbishment and rates need to go up even more because. Throw in a minority government here are there and suddenly the idea of doing anything to raise tax rates that might cover those costs (especially with a "taxes are evil" mentality amongst the public and) the Liberals have little choice but raise rates; At least that way, the biggest users of peak power (industry) are paying the brunt of the costs.

What the Liberals should've done in the past decade-plus is buy back all hydro production and supply and reinstate Ontario Hydro. But they didn't. And the only party likely to have done that was the NDP, but they haven't come close to running the province since the populace unfairly blamed them for a global recession and gave them the boot. And what the Liberals should not have done is crib the Hudak plan of selling off part of Hydro One to subsidize hydro prices. Big mistake, because investors want returns and the government loses out on dividends. But again, PC or Liberal government, we'd be in the same position.

I think what you fail to realize is no one cares if the price was going to go up, it is that the liberals did nothing for over a decade to stop the price increases and made the price increases worse then expected.

You're oversimplifying. The Liberals did institute the Ontario Energy Board to regulate utility rates. But by that point, the cat was already out of the bag, and regulating the new private companies (licensed suppliers like Bullfrog, Direct Energy, etc.) too much also meant potentially forcing them out of business (bad for jobs, bad for PR, bad for attracting business in general). So capitulations were made. Private competition also meant that government owned power supply ends up supplying less people and reducing income for the province and reducing economies of scale.

I'm not trying to scapegoat the Conservatives here, but the fact of the matter is most of the major problems with Hydro today all lead back to what Harris did to Ontario Hydro.

Sure, the Liberals could've done *more* by returning things to the way they once were, but that would not have been a very easy task, monetarily or politically. Hell, we've had well over a decade of people crying to privatize the LCBO, which makes well over a billion a year in pure profit for the province; money that goes to pay for the services you and I use every day. Yet people still want to sell it off so that they can spend $0.05 less on a bottle of beer. So, let's just say the political climate right now is pretty chilly on publicly owned companies.

So please, other than criticizing and demonizing, can you offer an actual solution?
 
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Just like Rob did when he became mayor. And found .... pretty much nothing. (The spacing in Doug's emails drives me crazy, but I figure you should all enjoy it with me.)

Kathleen Wynne’s pals are getting rich on the taxpayer dime.



The Liberals have handed out hundreds of millions of dollars in sole-sourced contracts.



It’s crazy.



So here’s what I’m going to do.



Day one.



Order a full, independent, outside audit.



We’re going to go through every ministry, line item by line item.



We’re going to find the money.



And we’re going to give all this information to the people.
 
Woah nelly! Keep the pedantry holstered. "Loss" was used in quotes, mimicking the parlance being used by the pro-PC pundits.

No pedantry here. Despite the quotation marks, you went on to provide a false definition of it's use in this context.

Perhaps you work for the Provincial Finance Ministry. It would explain a lot.
 
Not a response. Not an argument.

Kathy is a lethal fiscal criminal who has succeeded in destroying jobs and wealth in the Have turned Have Not (thanks to her) province of Ontario. She and her tribe of neo socialists have left us in such disarray that Ontario is growing dangerously close to not being able to refinance its debt at this point, let along pay it down.

Anyone who thinks that this woman is not dangerous to our society simply has an alternative agenda.

You are simply the best! Look at this! There's so much here and it's all so.......hype.

Lethal fiscal criminal?

Perhaps you've seen what a real "lethal fiscal criminal" looks like? I don't know....someone like Joseph Kabila, perhaps. Or maybe Nicolas Maduro. I don't know....maybe you don't know what you're talking about. A lethal fiscal criminal might be someone who steals from the treasury to enrich themselves and their friends while their people suffer hardship which can in some cases be lethal. See: Democratic (lol!) Republic of Congo or Venezuela for more information. :)

How does a single person destroy jobs? By blowing them up?

Are we currently a net receiver of equalisation payments? Talk to me.

Neo socialists? Do you know who the neosocialists were? They were fascists in 1930s France and Belgium who were big fans of Il Duce (Mussolini, in case you didn't know) and his Italian fascist government. I fail to see the link between the Liberal Party of Ontario and neosocialists. Please, please, please, please enlighten me because if they are of the same ilk then I dare say I could possibly become militantly opposed. Go on then.....teach me something.

Ontario is growing dangerously close to not being able to refinance its debt?

This requires explanation. Do you believe this because of Ontario's credit rating? It's nowhere near non-refinancing territory if that's your worry.
As for paying off the debt.....that we can agree on. (Whoah!)

To finish, you have accused me of having an "alternative agenda" because I don't believe Wynne is a danger to society (some idiotic combination of Putin, Kim, and Trump might be though, if you need a bogeyman to go after).
What, pray tell, would any agenda I have be an alternative to?

Rest assured, my only "agenda" is tea, beaches, rock climbing, and choons. I know, deplorable and scary!

PS: You sound like a lame-o Russian internet hack. :(
 
Also, Jasmine18, you have posted on UrbanToronto 260 times now, and after scanning through your posts, I can see that you have literally no interest in anything related to Urbanism in Toronto. You haven't posted one constructive comment on any building, transit system, park or other public space, which is what this forum is primarily about. UrbanToronto is not your platform for twitter-style political rants about how much you hate Justin Trudeau, over and over and over.

In fact, the *only* 2 posts of yours that I saw that were even slightly non-political were about:
1) How we should patrol Canada's Northern border with drones;
2) How we should impose tolls on 400-series highways, "like they do in the US".

So I guess what I'm saying is, what could you say now to disprove that you really have no interest in UrbanToronto and are just here to spout your conservative political views and slogans?

Yellow card for this rubbish, I dare say.

It doesn't really matter why she's here, does it? I mostly post in political threads.....shall I leave? Is my presence bothering you or am I somewhat agreeable because my politics aren't as jarring to you? (I know I'm a pretty annoying tit, but other than @Admiral Beez no one has yet to rip into me like this).

Where has she said she hates Justin Trudeau? I must have missed it. I think he's a bit of a clown as well. Does that mean I also "hate" him? And what of going on about a specific topic of irritation is so wrong? Perhaps I should be censured for my broken-record-yapping on the topic of our electoral system (example: it's crap!).

Yeah, Jasmine likes to talk about how disastrous she thinks the Liberal government has been. Yeah, she sometimes uses hyperbolic language. It's not that big a deal. You can try and disprove her assertions if you want.

There's an ignore function. You seem like you should acquaint yourself with it if you're this offput.

I can't imagine feeling the way you do. @LMVDR makes me laugh with their posts. Laughing things off is healthy!
 
(The spacing in Doug's emails drives me crazy, but I figure you should all enjoy it with me.)

Oh, yeah, super enjoyable. Like that time I was walking along a beach on a beautiful day until.....tree! Right in the face.

This email mentions Wynne's friends getting rich on the taxpayers' dime. I'm interested to know what Ford's tax situation looks like. For example, how much he pays as a portion of his actual income.

You know, since he's all in it for people like me who pay all their taxes and have no entitlements and deductions. Suuuuper interested. Has this ever been discussed in the media?
 
It seems that Doug is so much like Donald Trump that the Liberals are just using Trump quotes and attibuting them to Ford.

It seems that Kinsella is more of a centrist Liberal and he is "rolling in his grave" at both Wynne and Trudeau.
http://warrenkinsella.com/2018/04/you-all-read-about-this-one-in-the-toronto-star/

In social media copy that was also shared by some Liberal riding accounts, the party stated: “Doug Ford says he ‘loves the blacks’ but wasn’t at the Town Hall tonight… Did Doug Ford deliberately choose to ignore the black community leaders debate? #ONBlackVote #WhereIsDoug #onpoli”

There is one problem with this statement: QP Briefing cannot find any record of Doug claiming that he “loves the Blacks,” a phrasing that would be considered offensive.

We asked the Liberal Party to provide a reference to where we could find this quotation, and they conceded it was an error.

“It appears the tweet accidentally referred to Doug when it should have said Trump,” David Clarke, executive director of the Ontario Liberal Party, said in an e-mail on Monday night. “We’ve corrected the error and are working to ensure accuracy to re-issue it.”
 
Yellow card for this rubbish, I dare say.

It doesn't really matter why she's here, does it? I mostly post in political threads.....shall I leave? Is my presence bothering you or am I somewhat agreeable because my politics aren't as jarring to you? (I know I'm a pretty annoying tit, but other than @Admiral Beez no one has yet to rip into me like this).

Where has she said she hates Justin Trudeau? I must have missed it. I think he's a bit of a clown as well. Does that mean I also "hate" him? And what of going on about a specific topic of irritation is so wrong? Perhaps I should be censured for my broken-record-yapping on the topic of our electoral system (example: it's crap!).

Yeah, Jasmine likes to talk about how disastrous she thinks the Liberal government has been. Yeah, she sometimes uses hyperbolic language. It's not that big a deal. You can try and disprove her assertions if you want.

There's an ignore function. You seem like you should acquaint yourself with it if you're this offput.

I can't imagine feeling the way you do. @LMVDR makes me laugh with their posts. Laughing things off is healthy!

Well, since you steamrolled over this back-and-forth to let everyone know how virtuous you are, I will explain my thought process, and just hope that you -- being the arbitrator, apparently -- won't issue me another "yellow card". And before I do, I just want to point out that you're the one who slings the insults, like a few posts up when you said to @LMVDR : "PS: You sound like a lame-o Russian internet hack." But ohhhh, right, when you do it, that's just "laughing it off" and it's "healthy". Forumer please.

Obviously, UrbanToronto is primarily about urbanism in Toronto. There are political forums and twitter accounts meant specifically for deeper (louder) political discourse and by all means, post away on the political threads here, but something seems off if that's all one is here to do. I don't think it's overly prudent to question the intentions of a UT poster who posts a lot of re-hashed, right-wing rhetoric on social media, such as falsely equating budget deficit with debt and repeatedly posting "gas plants" without going into any further detail. Hmm... where have we seen that kind of behaviour before? What was that in the news lately, something about Cambridge Analytica? Good thing Ontario happens to be headed into an election.

It also shouldn't be a surprise that here on UT, the bulk of us are passionate about both private and public infrastructure, for which two of the 3 major parties have demonstrated broad support in the province, and for which one party and family in particular has historically shown a disastrous, chaotic disdain.

I do not understand why anyone on UT might try to sway support toward Doug Ford, and at the same time have any real interest in UT.
One may disagree with Liberal policies - that's not an issue, there's still the NDP and until recently there was the PC party under Patrick Brown, which I actually thought would have marked a move away from the common-sense revolution PC party that Eves previously tried to accomplish.
What I will concede is that I am not sure what Jasmine18 wants to accomplish here apart from letting everyone know that they really don't like the provincial and federal Liberals and reasoning that Doug Ford would be "less corrupt" with no follow-up, but I certainly stand by questioning whether they actually care about the primary subject matter of this site.

So while we have both questioned a forumer on their motives, at least I didn't call them "a lame-o Russian internet hack."
 
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People spouting off about right wng politics with an "18" appended to their names have a long history, unfortunately. The clue is which letters of the alphabet the 1 and 8 stand for, and a prominent mid 20th C political leader with those initials.
 

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